www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Can we pray someone out of hell?!

Dwight wrote:
This relates well with the topic in Town Hall: Akathist for the repose of those who have fallen asleep.

Here is the link to that discusion.
https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001804;p=2

Current Orthodox theology says that we experience a foretaste of heaven and hell...until the Final Judgement. As Zenovia said, we cannot forget the Final Judgement.

Again- it sounds like all the same thing to me in the end, although defined differently, or not defined at all, whatever the case may be.

Remember that our Lady said to the children at Fatima: pray for the poor souls in Purgatory.

So, whatever we call it, are prayers for the dead are efficacious until the Final Judgement.

In Christ,
Alice

I'm not sure this is an area to spend too long on having read warnings about speculating on the possible emptying of hell or redemption of the devil and his angels. However I did feel a certain warmth reading these posts from an ROCOR priest on the C.A. forum
(I'm sure he won't mind me copying them across)

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=425420&postcount=50
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=425422&postcount=51

Here is a story for you from an old Patericon (a Patericon is a book of the collected sayings of the monks of old.)

Now, don't swoop on me..!! I know the theological
pitfalls in this story -- but I *still* like it so much!
It resonates in my old Irish heart.

...With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba
Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon
who had come to tempt him. "Release me, Father, and let
me go," pleaded the demon, "I will not come to tempt you
again". "I will gladly do that, but on one condition,"
replied the monk. "You must sing for me the song that
you sang before God's Throne on high, before your fall."

The demon responded, "You know I cannot do that; it will
cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father,
no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live,
for you will surely die." "Then you will have to remain
here in my cell," said the monk, "and bear with me the
full struggle of repentance." "Let me go, do not force me
to suffer," pleaded the demon." "Ah, but then you must
sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall
with Satan."

So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was
no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible
at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang,
the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began
slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and
increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught
up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship
and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour
and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the
Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible
and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages
resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and
glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba's humble cell,
and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable
love and joy surged into the very depths of the being
of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently
stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body
of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.

-oOo-

Now we all know that it is the common opinion of theologians that the fallen angels have had their eternal fate decided, and have irrevocably chosen for God or against God.

So the theologians certainly have their common opinion but the Saints, always much better theologians, may be at odds with them.

For example, Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th century)wrote:

"What is a merciful heart? It is a heart that burns with love for the whole creation � for men, for birds, for beasts, for demons and for every creature."

Saint Isaac is not only wonderful and holy. He is also disturbing. I have no answers to this puzzle, but I do cherish the suspicion that our Lord expects us to mull it over a bit. Perhaps He has left us this Saint as a kind of gentle question mark placed over some of our certainties. Not over the essential ones, for Isaac himself is proof of those, but perhaps over others that we - not God - have declared certain.

What a wonderful post JGC. As I read the story of the fallen angel this Scripture came to mind.

Ephesians 5:7-15

7 Be ye not therefore partakers with them. 8 For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light. 9 For the fruit of the light is in all goodness, and justice, and truth; 10 Proving what is well pleasing to God:

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of. 13 But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light; for all that is made manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith: Rise thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead: and Christ shall enlighten thee. 15 See therefore, brethren, how you walk circumspectly: not as unwise...

Where the Light of Christ is the darkness of this world cannot remain. When the fallen angel was exposed to the Light of God he could no longer stay in darkness. Whether it is true story or not I don't know but it does bare strong reference to the Word of God. At one time before our Baptisms did our souls not look like as fallen angel appeared, dark? We entered the tomb with Christ to receive new life in Christ and our souls became white as snow. Just like the angel did as he sang once again the praises of God.

Thanks be to God!
Pani Rose

Indeed, Father. For that reason I wrote that the "'Sabbatine privilege' could be exaggerated." Perhaps you would be happier with "misunderstood."

I havn't taken time to read this but it might be interesting...

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm

Dear Friends,

Well, obviously you don't pay attention to other posts on this topic . . .

I put up the decision of a local Orthodox Council on this subject a few weeks ago.

The Council affirmed that the souls of the damned and the souls of those still requiring purification go to hades.

The souls of the damned stay there and the souls of the others, especially through the prayer of the Church, are eventually released from there and enter heaven.

That is what the synod affirmed when it gathered to deny purgatory as a separate "third place."

And you Orthodox Christians here - I'm surprised at you!

Alex

pray someone out of Hell? don't think it's possible. something else.does any one here know someone in Hell? how do you know they are there? I remember when Princess Diana (eternal rest) was killed, a friend of mine who was a student at Tennessee Temple told me that the princess was in Hell. I challenged him on that, and told him that it was no one's right to consign any one to Hell, even the Pope wouldn't do that (interesting thing to say to a Baptist) he backed off. at any rate, on the issue of the Pope, note that he would be quicker to consign someone to Heaven as a saint and intercessor for us at the throne of Grace, than to toss someone in to the Pit. None of us know what happens to the next person at the final division of Time, before she/he is launched into Eternity. we are to trust that there was a final reconciliation, and hope that the person is in Heaven, or at least Purgatory, if you want to do that there is a wideness in God's mercy that none of us can comprehend. don't write anyone off, just share Christ with the person, and hope and pray that she/he will come to Him in faith.so the idea of praying someone out of Hell is pointless, a mere waste of time to entertain such an idea.
Much Love,
Jonn

God's mercy being what it is (infinite, endless, etc.), I think it's safe to assume that no soul is beyond hope, or prayer.

Just assume EVERY deceased soul is in need of prayer -- if the one you're praying for doesn't need it, maybe it'll help someone else. Grace has a tendency to spread out.

Hello Dolly!

It's great that both East and West literally make a "business" of praying for the dead.

Every Saturday is a kind little "All Souls' Day" in the Eastern Church.

So what are you doing for Mardi Gras?

Alex

This Saturday is the first Saturday of the Souls. I think it is important that we attend atleast one of these services and offer the names of those who are 'fallen asleep' that we loved.

I am listening to a tape about Elder Paisios, an ascete of the Holy Mountain (reposed 1992), who was considered a saint while alive. The tape is in Greek and was given to my husband by an Elder he met while visiting the Holy Mountain.


I will try to relay it as I best I can as I understood it:

There was a certain woman who would seek out his counsel. She had a daughter. The woman was very stingy and when the daughter would ask her for some money to distribute to the poor, the mother would not give any. However, she did give to Elder Paissios for whatever he needed.

The stingy woman died. One night the woman's guardian angel came to Elder Paissios, and just like the tale of the ghosts of Christmas in Dicken's tale 'A Christmas Carol', the angel transported him to the grave of the woman and slid open the top. Elder Paissios said that without disgust or hesitation he stepped into the grave and hugged the half decomposed body of the woman, who cried out to him "Help me. Did I ever deny you when you asked?". Then the angel slid the top back onto the grave and transported him back to his cell. He prayed for the woman's soul.

Stories like this, from the holiest of men of monasticism through the ages, show us how important prayers for the dead are, so let's step up to the plate, and pray that our loved ones will also pray for us and remember us too.

One might also like to read the biography of one of my favorite saints: St. Xenia of Petersburg. Her completely selfless life of denial, homelessness and prayer after her young husband's unrepentent death (all for the sake of his soul)...it is said that God revealed to her his mercy on Colonel Andrei (St. Xenia's husband) at the end of her life.

--Alice

We know that God's mercy and the consequences of the Resurrection extend into Hell. As with many things in Orthodoxy, when we focus on the details and mechanisms of this rather than the mystery of it, we end up in strange and error-prone territory.

God's love extends into Hell and souls there are not beyond Redemption - all else is speculation.

The quintessential Orthodox response! It's moments like these that I am glad to be an Eastern Christian. Now if I could only get my mother's Roman Catholic side of the family to start thinking like this ...

Do we even know that anyone actually is in hell? Is it presumptuous of us to assume that anyone is? The question is therefore academic; we pray for the dead, because the Church has always prayed for the dead, assuming such prayer is efficacious because God is merciful, and his mercy endureth forever. So we have no choice but to pray for the dead, since we do not know if anyone is in hell or not.

"God's love extends into Hell and souls there are not beyond Redemption - all else is speculation."

Well isn't "souls there are not beyond Redemption" itself speculation then?