www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Agios O Theos

"The use of the Cyrillic alphabet waned, from what I recall, after the 15th or 16th century but it continued to be used in liturgical books for quite some time."

Yes, and the rite is also a hybrid. The Romanians were evangelized over the Bulgarian mountains, and using the Slavonic rite and service books, and actually didn't start serving the liturgy in Romanian until relatively late. Therefore the Slavonic heritage is strong. At the same time, the Romanians (at least the Wallachians and the Moldavians) had the strange situation of having exclusively Phnariote bishops during the Ottoman period, which led to some Greek influence, in terms of rite (as is the case throughout the Balkans, but is more pronounced in Romania, I think). So the result is a Romanian use that is quite an interesting blend of Slavonic with some Greek ritual elements, and now the linguistic and musical overlay of the romance language Romanian.

Brendan

My Romanian Greek-Catholic prayer book has:
indura-te spre noi

[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: vito ]

[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: vito ]

Dear Brendan,

And at the same time, Roumanian material culture and language itself are heavily Slavicized, owing to their close proximity to those Slavs.

My mother is from Wallachia and I've always been mesmerized by the Roumanian language.

The Orthodox St Pachomius the Roman and Theodora of Sihla are Roumanian Saints associated with the Kyivan Caves Lavra.

It was the mission outreach of St Paissy Velichkovsky, who fell in love with Roumanian too ( ) who introduced the cult of Sts. Vladimir and Olha and the Kyivan Saints to Roumania and who was adopted by the Roumanians as one of their own.

St. Callinicus of Cernica is, I believe, a canonized Roumanian Orthodox Saint of the Paisian school and there others in that tradition.

The desert-dwellers of the mountainous areas there are said to give off a holy fragrance from their relics.

A Roumanian priest from there told me about the recent discovery of a priest near his boarded up parish.

The priest had died more than 150 years ago, but when they examined his remains, he had clearly not decomposed at all!

The problem is, the priest said, that they have no known records about the priest or his name etc. which will make canonization difficult.

Alex

Can anyone comment on how much of the Slavic influence among Romanian Greek Catholics stems from incorporation of the Maramaros Ruthenian Greek Catholics? Would one presently find our prostopinije or Rusyn language in parts of Romania?

djs

PS
neat demographic maps of 1900 Hungary at:
http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g101.htm
Maramoros is some 40-50% Ruthenian and 50-75% Greek Catholic in 1900.

I don't know about prostopinije, but Rusyns are alive and well in Romanian Maramures:

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/rusin/trem1.htm

There was a more in-depth sociological article in the Carpatho-Rusyn American periodical in 1996, I think, by Danish sociologist Tom Trier.

Administratively, the Romanian government supports them as part of the Ukrainian national minority. However, Rusyns in Romania have finally established their own cultural organization, a few months ago. This will be written up in the next issue of the New Rusyn Times, the newsletter of the Carpatho-Rusyn Society.

A link about Rusyn culture in Romanian Maramures:
http://www.woodenculture.org/wooden/woodarc1.htm

The following is an extrapolation from the book Scurta Istorie a Bisericii Romane written by Bishop Ioan Ploscaru, late Greek-Catholic Bishop of Lugoj in Romania:
from Chapter 5: The Mumbling

In The Explanatory Dictionary of the Romanian Language (1975), we read: "a boscorodi" (to mumble) comes from the Ukrainian word boskorodity and means to speak alone, pronouncing incomprehensible words, that is, to mumble.
...the Slavonic language was introduced instead of Latin. Dimitrie Cantemir in Descriptio Moldaviae, (p. 152), still mentioned the procedure of severing one's tongue if they would not speak the Slavonic language.
The priests, who had not known the Slavonic language, began to imitate it through similar sounds, which they and those to whom they spoke did not understand. ...Consequently, [producing] a unique phenomenon..."the mumbling."
...The Romanian priests...knew in Slavonic only the Lord's Prayer and rarely The Creed, the rest of the services were mumbled.
No wonder that some bishops...were having doubts on the valid sources of the sacraments.
Every language has its beauty. Therefore, the Slavonic language is beautiful when it is correctly read and spoken. By the same token, when a language is parodied and mumbled, it is mocked.
How could the priest mumble through the baptism, confession, the Holy Liturgy; how could their bishops have ordained priests?

[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: vito ]

CIX!

It is at these points that we pray and believe that "Ecclesia Supplet"!

Just my two cents...

In Domino,

Edward

CNB!

Friend, must you use Latin?

In response to your point above, while I am not aware of all the implications that the Latins will derive from this phrase, it is offensive to my Christian ears, not for being in Latin, which is a beautiful language, but for usurping the role of Christ.

I pray in these cases, as in many, "Christus supplet." With Christ, what power does the "ecclesia" have?

Bob

Obviously, I must be the only Armenian on this forum . Here is the Trisagion in Armenian:

Soorp Asdvadz (Holy God), soorp yev huzor (holy and mighty), soorp yev anmah (holy and immortal),

and here's that (in)famous phrase you Byzantines used to agonize over :

vor khachezar vasun mer (who was crucified for us)

voghormya mez (have mercy on us).

I appreciate what "Orthodox Catholic" has said about the reasons for our use of this phrase and that we address the Trisagion to our Lord Christ. Your words of understanding are refreshing!

As a side note, that line "who was crucified for us" in the Armenian Church, varies based on what season we are in. Thus it is sung:

During Pascha (Zadeeg) and on Sundays:

"Who rose from the dead"

During Theophany (Asdvadz-a-haynootyoon) and Transfiguration:

"Who wast revealed for us"

For Purification, Pentecost

"Who came and art to come"

For the Assumption

"Who came to take your mother the Virgin"

on Fridays and Penitential seaons:

"Who wast crucified for us"

Alex said:
"Actually, it's 'Miaphysite' rather than 'Monophysite' especially since the Oriental Orthodox Churches have themselves disavowed the latter term."

reply:
Actually, I've not come across anyone in the Armenian Church who rejects the traditional terms. Most are content to refer to Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics as "Dyophysite" (or "Chalcedonian") and to the Oriental Orthodox as "Monophysite" (or "non-Chalcedonian"). (Actually, I remember one Armenian who wanted to be referred to as "Nicean Orthodox" rather than "non-Chalcedonian" but he's an exception and the only one I've ever heard request such a title.

In reality, we don't mind "monophysite" as long as this is not interpreted in a way that implies that we deny the true humanity of Jesus Christ, nor that we subsribe to the theology of Eutyches who's theology was officially condemned by our Church.

Thanks goes to spdundas for this interesting topic.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Der-Ghazarian ]

CIX!

Dear Bob,


A holdover from my latin days =)


The Church is the Bride of Christ, and They are One Body, therefore Ecclesia supplet = Christus supplet in my book - I hadn't meant to subtract from the role of Christ, of course.

Just my two cents!

Yours,

Edward

Dear Der-Ghazarian,

How fascinating!

I'll download your post on the Trisagion - how absolutely wonderful.

At times like these, I feel like getting down on my knees (it's not a Sunday) and thanking God for the Administrator for establishing this forum!!

Unfortunately, my dear Armenian Friend, when we Romans and Byzantines use "Monophysite" it is usually to denote the heresy of what should properly be called "Eutychianism."

In actual fact, how far the monk Eutyches was a heretic is also open to question.

Eutyches wouldn't agree that Christ is "consubstantial" with us i.e. humanity.

For him, that implied that Christ is one with sinners etc.

But, when pressed, Eutyches readily and happily agreed that Christ is consubstantial with His Mother. The Byzantine theologians who questioned him and received his approval for this were apparently relieved and considered him to be Orthodox from then on. Eutychianism continued in his followers after his death.

Now that I have you here, where could we get an English translation of the Armenian Horologion, say the one the Armenian Catholics use?

I also understand that the Caucasus was evangelized by the descendants and family of Barabbas. What are the Armenian traditions concerning this?

Alex

I guess that after my first comment on the Trisagion in Arabic I became invisible again.

I asked a question that I am interested in finding more about. If no one wishes to answer please just let me know and I will go elsewhere with it.

I have cut and pasted my whole post from earlier in the thread.

**************************************************
Here is a question for you.
I have noticed, most of you have used "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us."

Which is the translation used in the Ruthenian usage.

Now the Melkites, and a small morning/evening prayer book of the Ukrainian Orthodox uses "Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us."

Warning Off Topic Comment Follows: Which is also used at the end of the Divine Mercy Chaplet from St Faustina, could this be a bit of Eastern influence on Poland?
**************************************************

David

David,

Sorry missed your original post. My guess would be yes that is an Eastern influence. There is Eastern Icon of the Mother of God that is related to the Divine Mercy Devotion. I believe the Latins call it Our Lady of Mercy but it has a different name among the Ukrianians and Belarusins and I am sure LAex knows what it is.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Alex,

Thanks for your warm and kind words of interest in our Armenian Church tradition. I appreciate the interesting information on Eutyches. This is good news indeed.

I must confess my ignorance in not knowing what an horologion is. I'm guess based on the spelling it has something to do with "hours" and might be a "Book of Hours," the Divine Praises or Canonical Hours?

If so, you can get an excellent copy from the St. Vartan gift shop in New York City, NY. This shop of the Armenian Apostolic Cathedral has a very good selection of Armenian texts in English. I'll be ordering from them in the next couple of months because I have a friend in Romania who asked me to send him a copy. If you like I'll get one for you too and send it to you (its very inexpensive). Let me know.

Finally, I know nothing about Barabbas evangelizing our area. Sts. Thaddeaus and Bartholomew are the patrons of the Armenian Church. I have a little document giving the reasons I hold to this tradition at the following link (if interested):

see "Ten Reasons" @

http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/Articles1.html

Thanks again for your brotherly kindness,

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Dear Der-Ghazarian et al.,

I think that an Armenian setting of the Trisagion plays when you access this page:
http://www.homestead.com/Easterncatholichymns/stmarks3.html

It knocks me out!