www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Christmas Eve Divine Liturgy.

Fr. Deacon, the discrepency yet is another of the countless variations between the various Russian and Violakis typikons.

I was making the point that there is a difference between Greek and Slavic usage, assuming we all were familiar with the use of Great Compline on all days in the Slavic usage.

Bishop Kallistos in the "Festal Menaion" indicates Great Compline to be celebrated on days when Christmas does not fall on Saturday or Sunday. He does indicates Great Compline is used in the Slavic vigil on all days.

There are many local subdifferences as well, i.e. the timing of Vespers in relation to the Liturgy of SJC on the 24th. Some parishes unfortunately often omit the Vespers, which has the rich readings of the Paremia (Prophecies) of the Incarnation in the Flesh.
DRLB

Dear Father Deacon,

I did some hunting - the Old Rite "Минея" for December, the Nikonian "Tvпїкон" and Dolnytsky's "Типик"(!) all agree.

Спаси Христос!

Oυτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντιδα | Nemo Nos Diliget Non Curamus

Read my last post, I got religion :
But those former Athonites are so fun to be around (especially when you get some Mavrodaphne in them...

I went back to my old Bulgakov 1900 (Kharkiv) and he basically says the same thing, except in reverse (my rough translation) for Christmas Eve: "We celebrate the Vigil with Great Compline on all days, but there are those such as the monks of holy Athos and the Greeks who do not celebrate it on Saturday and Sunday evenings."
DD

Diak,

Isn't this just another example of the Ruthenian Metropolia in the U.S. changing usage from a Slavonic recension to Greek recension, no?

God With Us!(anticipated )

Ungcsertezs

Since the Ruthenian Metropolia churches here in America won't be serving "Po Vercherij Velikoje",
I'll be staying home on Christmas Eve. I will watch my 1-06-'92 video of Vladyko Ivan Semedi and the American Ruthenian-Byzantine Catholic delegation serving the traditional Ruthenian- Usage Great Compline (in Church Slavonic) and the Christmas Day Divine Liturgy with the tradional Rusyn-Slavonic Kol'jady at the Holy Cross Cathedral in Uzhorod. That was the first Christmas celebrated at the Cathedral since it was returned to the Rusyn Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mukachevo! I even have a pamphlet for the "Po Vercherije Velikoje" that was printed by the Byzantine Catholic Seminary c. 1962, completely in Church Slavonic! Ah, the good ol' days!

S'Nami Boh! (soon to be)

Ungcsertezs

Our schedule is:

10:00 a.m. Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
4:00 p.m. Great Vespers
8:00 p.m. Orthros for the Feast of Nativity
9:00 p.m. Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great for the Feast of Nativity

So we will not have Royal Hours. I think it is fairly common in our jurisdiction to have the evening liturgies. I�m sure there are various viewpoints on this. It is a little easier fasting wise though I have to admit, since the total fast starts late Friday and the strict fast is broken when the nativity liturgy is over about 24 hours later.

Andrew

Again, a change from the Slavonic Recension usage to a Greek (Hellenic) Recension usage. Even Metropolitan Nicholas Smisko (who studied at Halki) still uses the the Slavonic Recension usage, regardless of which day his ACROD parishes celebrate the Nativity Eve (December 24th or January 6th)!

S'Nami Boh,

Ungcsertezs

Thanks KO63AP for the clarification. But like Alex, I'm not in charge.

Would that all of the (non-monastic) bishops and priests were with small children in their households. Then they would be more careful before straying from the liturgical norms that call to celebrate the feasts in the mornings. [Neither my three month old nor my two and half year old may realisticly endure a 7:00 PM Vesperal Divine Liturgy.]

Our ONLY evening/night great feast is the Pascha and even that was added on later. The "original" Paschal Liturgy was a vesperal/baptismal one on the afternoon (approx 3-4 PM) before the Pascha. This Liturgy, what is now incorrectly referred to as the Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, is now usually moved, incorrectly, to Saturday morning.

[Interstingly, the Great and Holy Saturday is the only day upon which no Divine Liturgy may be celebrated. That means no Divine Liturgy from Friday evening until the PM of Holy Saturday. To wit: Holy Friday traditionally had a Presanctified Liturgy closing out the day and commencing at 3 PM. The Holy Saturday is the day when all mortal flesh should keep silent. There is nothing to say, and I include chanters in that group.]

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, I think we had this discussion a year or two ago.The Holy Saturday Vesperal Liturgy is really the First Paschal Service because every liturgical day begins with Vespers.I HAVE heard elsewhere that the Midnight Paschal Vigil-Liturgy was added later, but to me, this seems unlikely, unless the opinion is that the Paschal Liturgy was celebrated at the usual AM time.Among some Serbs,Romanians, and Western UKrainians,there is the custom of starting the Paschal Nocturnes-Matins-Liturgy at 4:00 AM or later.Some say that priests serving more than one parish might serve 2 or even 3 Paschal Matins followed by the Paschal Liturgy.That would exhaust even a young priest and I'm 53 and without assitants or deacons.Let's pray for my son,the Reader Mark, to find a wife,so that he might become a deacon.At least, he's of canonical age(over 25).

Among Carpatho-Rusyns, it is traditional to serve Paschal Matins in the night of Holy Saturday, and the Paschal Divine Liturgy on Pascha Morning. For the most part, this is what is done among the Transylvanian Romanians, too.

Must be a Carpathian thing.

Dave

Dear Dave, In my wife's former parish,once OCA and now ROCOR, the Paschal Matins was served at midnight and people came back for the Liturgy at 9:00 or 10:00 AM.In 28 years of priesthood and 3 parishes,I've always served Nocturnes at 11:30 PM Holy Saturday, followed by the procession,Matins and Liturgy at midnight.But I would sooner do everything the Western Ukrainian way,i.e., start at 4:00 AM or later, both serve everything together, as opposed to splitting up the Paschal Liturgy from Paschal Matins.Fr. Andrei

Since we are on the subject, just what is the Ukrainian Archeparchy and Metropolia of Philadelphia doing on Christmas Eve? Great Compline as done in the past or Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil? Both the Ruthenian (Carpatho-Rusyn) and Ukrainian Churches followed the same Typica. Who follows what now?

Ungcsertezs

Dear Ungczertesz,

To which calendar does your question refer?

Incognitus

Ah, a trick question! I'm speaking only those Ukrainian-Byzantine Catholic Archeparchial- Metropolitan Church of Philadelphia parishes celebrating on Dec. 24th.

But riddle me this? Is there a difference on what service is used on Christmas Eve in the ACROD since 25% of their parishes now use the revised Julian Calendar (Dec. 24th) vs. the 75% of ACROD parishes celebrating on Christmas Eve on Jan. 6th which falls on a Friday and not a Saturday? Again the Ruthenian (Carpatho-Rusyn originally) Church, the Ukrainian Church and the ACROD (Carpatho-Rusyn) originate from the same South-West Rus' (Ruthenian) Recension and I would like to know how each of these Churches differ in their recension usage now.

Ungcsertezs (S'Nami Boh!)

It's not sad in our parish at all. Many parishoners including the old and young are not able for a variety of reasons to attend services which begin at midnight and end whenever....
I have noticed that since they moved the service from midnight to 10:00 p.m. the church is overflowing again.

I.F.