www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Converts From Eastern Catholicism

Dear Robert,

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

God bless,

Arturo

Dear Robert Horvath,

Very good post!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Robert, thank you for that. There are many of us who sincerely believe in the entire Catholic Church's position that we as Greek Catholics return to a more authentic Orthodox practice. But as you so rightly mention those longer services in no way preempt any kind of obligation we have as Christians.

The Liturgy is the food and spiritual substenance for our being able to do precisely that, to live out our CHristian mission once we are outside the physical confines of the temple. We cannot reject either the Temple or our fellow man, as they are inextricably woven through Jesus Christ.

Dear Brian, I also want to thank you for your post. Bishop +Kallistos is truly a saintly and remarkable man, and has been a great inspiration to me over the years. When he came to our town several years ago for some lectures, after an introduction he warmly embraced me and I will never forget that.

I don't think the tone you take towards converts who may have been mistreated by one of your churches is constructive or beneficial to your church. Some converts are treated differently because they are not a member of your ethnic group (or they are a member of your ethnic group but inherited a non-slavic last name through marriage). Some are mistreated because they believed what they were told about the Byzantine Catholic Church and found their priest and teachers were teaching their children and their parishes something radically different and they spoke out about it. Some are mistreated because they just didn't grow up with the group.

No offense, Mr. Horvath, but if you think hurling insults at converts, even the ones who have real concerns about valid issues in their church, is constructive, I don't think you can expect anything other than shrinking membership and church closings. You could have taken a much more constructive and caring tone to people who may have been hurt.

Your post assumes far too much about too many people. I certainly hope your church will be as loyal to its converts as your church demands loyalty from its converts.

Not all converts leaving BC left because they were not loyal to it or because they didn't put money, blood sweat and tears into their church and community. Not all converts left because the church was "imperfect" and they demanded absolute perfection.

Expected imperfection in a church is not an excuse for lethargy and unresponsiveness to the needs of converts. If you find converts leaving your church a trend, perhaps the finger you're wagging should, at times, be pointed another direction.

What do you suppose this post will do? Call us back to you?

I feel obliged to add that linking all those who leave your church to being followers or purposeful victims of Satan is more than uncharitable. It is what it accuses.

I feel it is obvious that I and those like me are no longer welcome on this forum. Hopefully one day all this name-hurling foolishness that is truly from Satan will end.

I pray for unity and bid you all the peace of Christ.

Well put. (And I thought what Robert wrote was well put also.) There's a lot to do to keep our balance in things but we really ought to get serious about restoring our authentic patrimony to our Churches while not neglecting the gospel call to take care of the Lord's "brethren."

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

I can't speak for Robert but I know that daily I face trials from the Evil One and I took his remarks in that spirit.

I think most of the posters here welcome all from both sides of the divide (and ex-members from both). I've never considered your posts, Cizinec, to be offensive.

Please stay!

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

This thread underlines an important reality. I also agree with Dave that many of the points raised by Cizinec are certainly valid and too often reality in Greek Catholic parishes. I am a bit uncomfortable also with the seemingly disparaging statements about the "long beards", etc. There should be a place in Greek Catholic churches for those who want to move deeper into the beautiful Byzantine tradition.

Conversion ultimately is a personal experience with God, although it certainly affects others. In the end it is, as the post above correctly points out, the result of a personal pilgrimage. This pilgrimage is usually one precipitated by a mixture of good and bad experiences.

The post above underlines an important point, that indeed care must be exercizing gross judgement on this issue, as while there may be this or that "trend" or "mentality" with converts, ultimately what brings about the conversion is personal, specific to the person involved.

It also underlines the fact that those in the leadership of the Church sometimes are not conscious or sensitive to those in the pew, and they above all need to remember their mission to preserve and transmit Byzantine tradition and evangelize with that tradition.

And spiritually, there comes a point sometimes when the finger in the dike just isn't stopping the water anymore. I have been there. It is much more complex than a black-and-white issue of loyalty. Loyalty to something on the wrong track or something ceasing to be spiritually efficacious isn't loyalty at all, but foolishness.

Dear Cizinic,
Please do not misunderstand, most of the people posting here have been converts in one way or another and know from which they speak.

I have followed with interest and deep sorrow the tribulations you and your family endured. The sincerity of your efforts is commendable. Many of us have prayed for your well-being and I don't think anyone who remembers your posts doubt that you have tried your best, you should be a real asset to your new parish. You are respected and loved here.

In your case (and in many others like yours) I know mistakes have been made. As it has been said 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' so I would say that while most of us have good intentions, we in our ignorance can be the instrument used to damage the church. Some of us have been the unwitting tools to drive you away, Satan is sifting us all, I hope that you could find it in your heart to forgive us.

I too pray for the unity of the churches, may we all one day share the same cup, the sooner the better!

Do what you think is best and many happy years to you and your family, God bless you always.

Michael

Slava Isusu Christu!

I will tell you I was very reluctant to make that post, but I felt a deep need to do so. I think it really deals with and confronts some big issues that needed to be dealt with and debunked. What really set me off was a post, I will not mention which post, about a baptized Greek Catholic who is going to be "baptized" again! What kind of nonsense is that! What a blasphemy against the Holy Trinity. Re-baptism of Catholics is such a repungnant thing to me I cannot even tell you how it offends and upsets me.

We give the full rites for Baptism, just like the Orthodox; many of our priests do triple emersion and many of their priests do triple pouring. Give me a break! We strain gnats through strainers over issues that are of no RELEVANCE whatsoever to a hurting and dying world. Tonight at the soup kitchen I gave a homeless guy a icon card of the Resurrection. He started crying and said that was the most beautiful thing he ever saw. I told him that Jesus loved him and I gave him a hug. THAT is the REAL issue; not this nitpicking over of things and issues that are abhorrent to a Christ whose only concern was seeking for a lost people, a broken people. That is the only problem with us Easterns we will go to war over the Filioque et al, but we forget about the person who has never heard about Christ! Pleeeassee! I am not sitting here bragging about serving poor and hungry people; To tell you the truth most people are only two paychecks from being in that line as well. I am nothing. I am a worthless sinner, a terrible example to the Body of Christ, a Chief Sinner. And I mean that, but the Lord allows me to see His wonderful face in the people that come to eat and be filled. I am one of them, they are my people and they could care less about all this bickering we do all the time in the Church; all they want is hope; all they want is to meet a real Christian - a real person. They have had enough of the plastic people and the plastic Church. God redeem us from such a state. Amin!

May God through the prayers of the Mother of God and all the Saints have mercy upon me and save me for He is good and lovest mankind.

Your brother in Christ,


Robert Horvath

Slava Isusu Christu!

Beloved-in-the-Lord Cizinec:

My post was about the Orthodox and Catholic Churches in regard to the convert phenomena. I think your posts reveal a deep sadness over your journey. You ARE in my prayers before the Ikon Corner tonight. Please forgive me a sinner; be aware that nothing but love could come from me to you my friend; nothing, but love. May the prayers of the Mother of God save us!

In Christ,


Robert Horvath, Chief Sinner

Robert,

I believe the "Greek" Catholic that you are refering to is me. If it was me who you were refering, I wasnt baptized Catholic I was Baptized Protestant. If I was Baptized Catholic, I would still request to be recieved by Baptism because I believe it to be the correct form of recieving heretics is by the mysteries of initation.

My priest gave me a good example.

If I try to plug a lamp into the wall and there is no juice to turn on the lamp, thats a Heretic Baptism. Just because I plug the lamp in doesnt mean its going to work, even though it looks like it does.

Just because a person is "baptized" in external apperance in the Trinitarian Form, doest mean it has grace. And since its my personal belief is that Heretical "Mysteries" have no grace then it would be proper to "re"-baptize the person.

In Christ
Daniel

No, Daniel. I'd say you judge whether the lamp is working or not by the light it emits. The Light of Christ has been so clearly illuminated in countless Catholics throughout the centuries that I'd find it safe to say our Catholic lamps are working just fine.

Logos Teen

Heretic baptism wouldnt emit light, if it was a lamp.
I am not saying that Heretics are without Individual Grace from God of course not, thats not my place to comment on, but in regards to "Sacramental Validity" thats a different story.

In Christ
Daniel