www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Tsar Nicholas Icon in a Florida Parish

Alex, I like your post.

For my two cents worth for whatever it may count for, I have mixed feelings concerning this. I do not doubt the sanctity of the Grand Dutchess Saint Elizabeth or her cell attendant Saint Barbara. In reading their lives, there was definitely a conversion and striving to live the gospel daily.

As far as the rest of the Romanov family, I am neutral. Like any monarch, mistakes had been made, and history records these. Tsar Nicholas II was ill-equipped to handle the reigns of power when his father was assinated. He did open up tolerance in Russia with the Edict of Toleration of 1905, and was a great supporter of the Church. He also was in favor of allowing the Church to return to the sobornost form of governance. Whether he or his family are saints, the Church has declared so and only God can confirm. We may never know the precise answer until we too pass from this temporal life to next.

Veneration of certain saints helps give a role model for us to follow. Certain saints appeal to us in our veneration. If a saint is not to your liking for some reason, it does not mean they are not saints, it just means that our temporal eyes can not see the sanctity. I guess that is why we have so many saints. So that with our clouded eyes we may still find a role model to help us in our Christian walk towards salvation.

Forgive me if what is my opinion offends.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Bless, Father Anthony!

I like your post as well!

What is perhaps most difficult in the case of the Romanov Saints is not so much the recorded events of history but the way they have been interpreted over time.

Not only Bolshevik propagandists, but Western historians as a whole, tended to share a common interpretation of the Romanovs until now.

"Bloody Nicholas" was the cry that was not only heard in the streets of Russian cities, but in London, England as well at that time.

A careful reading of the historical events at the time shows that Tsar St Nicholas was not only innocent of complicity in the crimes he has been historically charged with - in fact, he blamed himself and did penance for the crimes of others, crimes they did in his name (i.e. Bloody Sunday - demonstration was led by a Ukrainian Orthodox priest, Fr. Alexander Happon who strongly supported the Tsar and his demonstrators carried portraits of the Tsar - something that is always deliberately overlooked).

I know many Orthodox who feel they need to somehow apologise for the canonization of the Romanovs.

There is no need for that at all!

They have been smeared for years - as have other saints - and it is only know that historians are far enough away from the events of the Russian Revolution that they can assess it in a more critical light (revolutions as a whole are usually failures and serve the narrow interests of a new elite).

Tsar St Nicholas and his family continue to be instrumental in the spiritual rebuilding of Russia. They are also responsible for not a few conversions to Orthodoxy among those of the "barbaric West."

I'm Ukr. Catholic and my grandfather, a UGCC priest and his presbytera helped a number of Russian aristocrats escape Bolshevism. They always remarked how deeply cultural and spiritual the aristocrats were ("a totally different pair of galoshes them!" as they used to say ).

There were Tsars who were nasty and mean - Tsar St Nicholas Romanov, Tsar St Alexander I (ST Theodore Kuzmich) and Tsar Paul I are not in their number.

Alex

Personally, I do not have a doubt that the Royal martyrs and passion bearers and praying for us before God.

Andrew

What about Rasputin, the Rajneesh of his day?
I understand that St John of Kronstadt also praised Rasputin; I would expect more discernment of saints, or even of my fellow sinners!
-Daniel

Our church went to see the Icon. We had Liturgy at the RCC. I have pictures.

Perhaps tonight I will try to remember to post them.

Dear Daniel,

There is a cult for Rasputin among a certain group - but the Moscow Patriarchate has categorically affirmed that Rasputin - nor Ivan the Terrible - will never be canonized.

And St Basil the Great once praised some Semi-Arian heretics and he composed a panegyric for an Arian martyr, St Nicetas the Goth - I doubt very much if that affected his sainthood.

And St Charles Borromeo, in his zeal to combat heretics, ordered his priests to break the seal of confession should they come across any penitents confessing they were heretics - and inform him immediately.

There are many, many other examples in the hagiographic lists.

Alex

Nicholas II was an anti-semitic despot.He was the worst thing for any despot to be,incompetent.Even his Mother thought it.
He brought death and ruin to Russia and europe.

Dear JohnyJ,

In fact, there is a publication by an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi that disagrees fundamentally with your rather unjust accusation against someone who is, truth be told, a canonized Saints of the Orthodox Church.

Tsar St Nicholas Aleksandrovich Romanov did not bring ruin to Russia - the Bolsheviks did and also the Western Allies who tended to support left-wingism and still do.

He was widely supported in the countryside and by many sectors of Russian society.

It was simple military, brute force that crushed him and Orthodox Russia.

He was also the most open of the Tsars to Catholicism and to Eastern Catholics (apart from Tsar Paul I).

I am not going to argue with you but as someone who WANTS to be a Moderator (and I think I'd do a better job at it than Jim over at Kliros who keeps closing down threads at the drop of a hat ), I think you are being unduly nasty.

If you want to be nasty at someone, be nasty at the Bolsheviks and please refrain from repeating, willy-nilly, their tired old anti-Nicholas propaganda.

Why are you so against the Romanovs (my distant relatives) anyway?

Alex

Dear Alex you said:

"If you want to be nasty at someone, be nasty at the Bolsheviks and please refrain from repeating, willy-nilly, their tired old anti-Nicholas propaganda.

Why are you so against the Romanovs (my distant relatives) anyway?"


I ask:

Now you've made me curious? Where is the relationship?

Zenovia

Dear JohnnyJ,

I think you should read:

" An Englishman in the Court of the Tsar: The Spiritual Journey of Charles Syndney Gibbes (Hardcover)by Christine Benagh"

It will certainly change your opinion. Actually, Charles Syndney Gibbes would never talk about the Czar and his family... but he finally opened up.

I might have been doubtful about their sanctity before, but not now.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

That was truly an awesome book! I HIGHLY recommend it.

Through this first hand account of their last months, days and minutes, I truly came to understand the holiness of the Tsar and his family in their last pious days.They lived out their last days gracefully in great, great love and devotion to God, to faith, and to each other.

I can only admire their Christ like peace through all the hatred, humiliations, hardships and uncertainties they lived through in those days.

I have to admit that I felt the Tsar and his family somehow close to me after reading that book. This supernatural and holy feeling convinced me that they were indeed 'passion bearers'.

Holy Royal Martyrs, pray unto God for us!

In Christ,
Alice

Ok as promised here is the picture of the Icon:
Icon [geocities.com]

Here is the picture of the church:
BCC Church Visits RCC to see Icon [geocities.com]

One side note, because this is on a free website the bandwidth might be reached real fast. That means the pictures may not become visible for some.

What a beautiful icon to behold Ray. Thanks for sharing and such an intereting chapel too.

Personally I think it matters how the Tsar & Tsarina were before they died. If as it seems they used the time left to them very well then what happened before really does not matter. It is of interest true but how they were when they died is more important. If we all had to wear our sins and were never to be allowed to be forgiven our sins, then why would we bother to respond to the call to holiness. I think that we will be very surprised who is in heaven and who is not when our own time comes. There can be no doubt that the news of their deaths shocked their former subjects to their very core. There have been years of Soviet propaganda about that they made Russia progressive in industry and production yet they did not pass the Tsarist figures for over 1/2 a century and to get that Millions of people were murdered.

ICXC
NIKA

I wanted to place this post last evening after reading JohnyJ's post, but decided to wait overnight.

As I posted yesterday, the Orthodox Church of Russia, confirmed by other autocephalous churches added the Romanov family to the calendar of saints. For many believers they hold a special place in thier veneration and Christian walk as intercessor's. When one attacks that saint, one attacks one's faith causing many different negative feelings.

If you can not post in a civil manner or in a way that would lead to an open and positive discussion regarding these or any saints, I would strongly advise that the post be withheld. As you can see there are many posters on both sides of the Orthodox/Catholic divide that have a veneration of these saints. Your comments are seen as a biased and personal attack on one's faith and on the Church.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator