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Dear Friends,

For those who don't read Russian, the above website on the rule by St Seraphim of Sarov affirms, as well, the belief of the Orthodox Church that this rule was revealed by the Mother of God to all Christians in the 8th century.

Again, no mention of anyone's old uncle from the Carpathians . . .

I'd write more, but I need to begin my Rule to the Mother of God . . .

Alex

Dear Filipe:

There are many instances in the martyrdoms of the Ukrainian Catholic Church where the godless mocked the faith.

Here is just one example:


A Fearless preacher.

Priest and Martyr Father Zenoviy (Kovalyk) was born on August 18, 1903 in the village of Ivakhiv near Ternopil. He entered the Congregation of the Redemptorists and on 28 August 1926 he made his religious vows. His philosophical and theological education was received in Belgium. He returned to Ukraine and on 4 September 1937 was ordained to the priesthood. He served as a missionary in Volyn. On 20 December 1940 he was arrested in church while giving a homily. After terrible tortures he was murdered by the Communists in a mock crucifixion against a wall in a prison on Zamarstynivska Street, in Lviv in June 1941.

He died a martyr for the faith.

"[His] sermons made an incredible impression on the listeners. But in the prevailing system of denunciations and terror this was very dangerous for a preacher. So I often tried to convince Father Kovalyk � that he needed to be more careful about the content of his sermons, that he shouldn't provoke the Bolsheviks, because here was a question of his own safety. But it was all in vain. Father Kovalyk only had one answer: 'If that is God's will, I will gladly accept death, but as a preacher I will never act against my conscience.'"-- [memories of Yaroslav Levytskyi].

Taken from the materials for the Beatification of the 28 Martyrs and Servants of God. 27 June 2001, Lviv, Ukraine.


Sincerely
defreitas

First of all, I have nothing against the rosary as a private devotion. We did have the situation when our Byzantine Mission first started, of some rosary devotees publicly praying the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God before Divine Liturgy. Fortunately, this was stopped since it had no place as a part of Byzantine public worship. But here is my problem with all of this. Rosary fans will say about anything to validate this particular devotion. They will invoke Fatima - and why would you care if you don't happen to believe in it or other private revelations? Sources are also easy to come by which were/are emotionally attached to the rosary/prayer rule. There are plenty of Western sources who swear that the rosary really did come from St. Dominic and it's origins are Western. Here is what I am looking for. Sources in English - no I don't speak Russian, Ukrainian or whatever, that are OBJECTIVE historically and prove the Prayer Rule existed before the Western rosary - and please, no Swahili texts, either. Again, I specify objective sources because devotees of the rosary/prayer rule are emotional to the point of hysterics concerning that devotion as evidenced by:

Tenny (if you don't give us a name, that's what I'm calling ya'll from here on out :p ),

If Alex promises not to lead the old aunties in recitation of the Rule or the Rosary aloud, inside the temple, during or immediately prior to the Divine Liturgy, without first announcing a disclaimer to the effect that its use as a public means of devotion in the Eastern Churches is a matter of some dispute, can we mercifully put this issue to rest?

I'll pray a Rule or Rosary (your choice) for your intentions if you say "yes".

Many years,

Neil

Daer ByzanTN,

Sorry for appearing "hysterical," but I think we EC's would be as "hysterical" if someone (usually of the Latin Church) told us NOT to have married priests etc.

I'd recommend the book, "Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint."

Also, the "Orthodox Word" has an article on St Seraphim's Rule to the Mother of God, I have an old copy.

You could also have someone who speaks Russian translate the prayer rule I've listed - since you apparently feel my bias is tending to translate "more" than is written .

If I am hysterical, it is because of the BS (Byzantine Silliness) that I and my friends have been exposed to from our EC "MOTTO'S" (More Orthodox Than The Orthodox) that looks for artificial differences between East and West in liturgical practice and other areas.

This Rule of prayer is so intimately connected with one of the greatest of the Orthodox Saints, namely Seraphim of Sarov, that to question it just might truly be "sacrilegious."

But, as Brother Neil has said, it is truly a fact that we do NOT recite the Prayer Rule or Rosary publicly in church before the Divine Liturgy etc.

There is, of course, nothing preventing a group recitation and the Orthodox nuns of Diveyevo recite the Rule together as they go around their monastery.

It is largely intended for private recitation.

The "Encyclopaedia of Orthodoxy" 2003 literally "canonizes" this form of prayer as recommended for all Orthodox Christians.

If I came across as "too heavy" over this matter, it is not only because of my love for this Rule, but also because our beloved St Seraphim of Sarov valued it so highly etc.

There are also prayer ropes one can get that are divided into decades for this recitation, but, for my money, Tammy Kelly's www.chotkis.com [chotkis.com] is the best place to get them!

I've also met a few Orthodox bishops and priests in my time - believe me, I ALWAYS ask them about the Rule of Prayer to the Mother of God in the Orthodox Church.

And they always respond by saying, "Yes, and what about it?"

Alex

Dear Neil,

A student of mine in religion class once told me that the Rosary is a form of prayer "That seems to last for five decades . . ."

Smart aleck . . .

Alex

My name is Charles, and I have used it on numerous posts. And there are Byzantines in Tennessee. I mean, if there can be Irish Melkites, there can be Byzantines in Tennessee or anywhere else for that matter. My point in these posts is that I have not found any objective evidence for the prayer rule preceding the development of the western rosary. I do find people with a deep emotional attachment to these devotions, to the point that they only see the evidence they want to see. I am not convinced that the claims made for it are verifiable. You may pray either devotion of your choice, as prayers are always appreciated.

Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Logos Teen

No Alex, I don't think you added to the text. Russian speakers are not common in this area, and for any practical purpose, the text remains unreadable. But concerning the rosary in general, I looked on the OCA website. It maintains the following:

rosary [oca.org.]

So as far as the OCA is concerned, "The Roman Catholic devotion of praying the Rosary is not a part of the Orthodox Christian Tradition, as this devotion in its present form dates from about the 15th century -- hundreds of years after Roman Catholicism separated herself from the Orthodox Church." They don't address the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God.

FWIW...

I carry with me at all times (in my left pant pocket) BOTH a rosary and a chotki. I confess that my own private prayer practice involves the use of my chotki on a more regular basis than the rosary, but I find it comforting to be able to reach into my pocket during the (numerous!) stressful moments that occur during the normal workday and immediately be presented with a comforting, tactile reminder of the eternal presence of both Our Lord Jesus Christ AND his Most Holy Mother, Our Blessed Theotokos.

What comfort I take in being able to "feel" them so near to me!

a pilgrim

Dear ByzanTN,

Yes, I've read that on the OCA site as well.

I hope I'm not treading on any toes here, but that statement by the OCA is factually incorrect even with respect to the RC Rosary.

Any elementary student of the subject knows that the rosary did not originate in the 15th century.

In addition, Western Rite Orthodox practice the rosary and they do this because they know it originates from the time of the united Church of Christ.

The Synod of Milan's Prayer Book has two forms of the rosary outlined for use by ALL Orthodox Christians and they scrupulously omit pious practices taht originated after the schism of 1054 AD!

Whoever wrote the above for the OCA has never delved into Western church history following the schism of 1054 AD, let alone the history of the rosary.

One can legitimately claim that the form of the rosary that is specifically Western is indeed RC, but to make distinctions based on whether the West uses "hard beads" and the East uses "soft wollen beads" and this or that is to really be splitting hairs.

In addition, did that person who wrote that for the OCA site ever read the life of St Seraphim of Sarov and how St Seraphim prayed the 150 Hail Mary's daily and promoted this devotion?

Or the Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy published by the Moscow Patriarchate in 2003?

I'm sure there are people at the OCA head offices who can read Russian and if they had the above book they can find 15 mysteries listed on page 213. One prays on Our Father and 10 Hail Mary's for each mystery etc.

Now if that isn't the "rosary . . ."

And I've spoken to some priests AND bishops of the OCA who not only knew about the Rule of the Mother of God but prayed it . . .

As for the revelation of this prayer to a monk of the Thebaid in the 8th century - this has always been a consistent story that has been repeated by Orthodox church sources to this day.

Does it matter whether this really happened? Of course not.

But, frankly, if St Seraphim of Sarov believed that it did and if other Orthodox church sources that treat of the Rule of Prayer say that it did happen, then there is nothing wrong if we ourselves believe it.

The practice of praying Our Fathers and Hail Mary's instead of the Psalms goes back a long way in Christian history in any event.

Both Mt Athos and the Old Believer tradition have had it as a private exercise of piety for centuries.

I've also met Eastern Catholics and Orthodox who deny that the Rule of prayer has any role in the East.

And some of these deny that St Seraphim of Sarov recited etc. even when shown the Orthodox sources.

The bias against the rosary in this respect shows up in them.

Please remember that I, at one time, stopped with the rosary as I was told that was an entirely Latin practice.

But I came back to it on the basis of historic and existing Orthodox piety with respect to this exercise.

Once again, I challenge the OCA person who wrote that to square what he or she said with the actual practice of St Seraphim of Sarov, the Diveyevo Monastery, Staretz Zechariah, Mt Athos and other witnesses of living Orthodox spirituality. And if these tell me that this devotion originated when they said it did, I can trust their faith and spirituality to accept it.

Ultimately, Charles, you and I weren't there!

But the onus is on the OCA to prove that what it says isn't a contradiction of really well- publicized Orthodox practice, especially during the anniversary years connected with St Seraphim of Sarov when his Rosary Rule was being widely published on the internet.

That's all I really have to say. No one is forced to fulfill the Rule.

But then again, no one is forced to honour St Seraphim of Sarov or enter more deeply into his Marian spirituality and those of saints like him.

Alex

Dear Alex,

If anyone has the credentials and knowledge to correct the OCA website, privately and respectfully, it is you.

Hint!

Love in Christ,
Alice

Good question, Neil. I was (parish wise) Russian Greek Catholic from Our Lady of Kazan. Father Alexis Floridi, SJ was my Pastor, there.

Having said that, since there was no Byzantine Rite bishop for the parish (it was under the direct jurisdiction of the Latin Rite Diocese), Archbishop Joseph would serve in visitations when a bishop would actually serve.

Father Orestes and I would spend hours talking at the Newton Archdiocese headquarters downstairs by the Bishop's Chapel. Besides being the leading Greek Catholic theologian at Vatican II (as you stated), he was also the personal Father confessor of the Archbishop.

Among the Melkite Greek Catholics, there were basically three schools of thought. The pro Latin Basilian Salvatorians, the middle or laity/parochial group and the St. Gregory's (Holy Cross/Hellenic College) group. Is this still so? I feel fairly secure in saying that the latter was the most pro Orthodox of any Greek Catholic group. They looked at the Union as something that they were waiting, praying and hoping to end and wanted their theological students to be educated by the Orthodox Church as much as possible. I'm not sure that the last group has as much influence as they did with Archbishop Joseph and Father Karami. Father King was also a very fine Byzantine historian who debunked much of the patriarchal myth about the acceptability of Cyril Tannous vs. Sylvester the Cypriot. Very courageos for a Greek Catholic to do.

Neil, please update me from your POV. I would find your observations of the Newton MGC today to be very interesting.

Steve

Dear Defreitas,
Thank you very much. I will include the story of Father Zenoviy, not in the third mystery but in the last as I beleive it more accurately mirrors the actual crucifixion of Our Lord.

Logos Teen,
You might be surprised to find that I had already mentioned the victims of torture of Abu Ghraib. Although I am mainly using cases with Christians persecuted for their faith, I made a point of saying that Christ died for all men and is present during the trials and tribulations of all men. How fitting that today's reading was the beginning of the book of Job...

Finally, even if my question was at one time misplaced it has certainly grown into a discussion that has everything to do with Faith and Worship!! Some consolation...
For what it's worth, I had the habit of praying the 15 decades daily, usually in groups of five at different times of the day. However, since I received a copy of the liturgy of the Chotki from Tammy I have replaced the final five decades of the rosary with the recitation of the 100 beed chotki that I bought in Serbia last April. Would Charles criticize me, as a Latin, for praying the Chotki? And if I organized a group in my parish to pray it before mass, would he wish for this to be stopped at all cost?
Whether or not one believes in Fatima, or whether the prayer began here or there, then or now, although interesting does seem to be quite off the mark. I know that there has been excessive latinization of eastern traditions in the past, and this is something that, as a Latin living in a 99.9% latin country I will never be able to fully understand, but can't we just see the rosary for what it is? A beautiful form of devotion that knows no borders?
Anyway. This thing I am writing is to give my girlfriend on her birthday, which is tomorrow and I would like to get it written before 6:00 am! So off I go. I have already translated the liturgy that Tammy sent me into Portuguese for her to be able to pray the chotki I brought her as well.
God bless you all! Thanks for the help!
Filipe

I believe I did say at least a couple of times, that I have no objection to the rosary as a private devotion. The same would be true for the chotki. They are just not part of the liturgy, nor should they be. If you get a group together in church to pray anything, you probably should first ask for your priest's approval, since it is technically no longer a private devotion but a public act in a public worship space. The problem in my area was that people were praying the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God before Divine Liturgy instead of the prayers mandated by our Church authorities - probably a disobedient act. That has now changed and we pray the appropriate prayers.