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#53575 04/06/05 07:18 AM
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Here is a question. I have been attending a Romanian Orthodox church for the past year now. It has been a very nice, refreshing, and politically/eccliasially unemcombering spiritual ride. However, one issue that bothered me from day one what a change to the creed. The Constatinopolitan portion regarding the Holy Spirit, et al, used the phrase "One Holy Ecumenic, and Apostolic church..." Yes, Ecumenic. This, to me, is clearly not the same as Catholic/Universal. I recently brought it up at a parish council meeting and received acolades from all the members except the priest and his brother who felt it should not be tampered with. Can I get some imput as this issue was tabled but leaning toward changing the wording back to Catholic. As an Orthodox christian, I AM catholic. The pope feels we are in communion, I in conscience, am in communion, and I can receive all the sacraments, if I want to, in a Catholic church. Also, we share the same faith heritage, sacraments, and apostolic succession. Who is the Catholic church to put a monopoly on Univesal-ness. We Orthodox share in the Catholicity/Universality. What say ye all?

#53576 04/06/05 09:58 AM
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Reminds me of a priest of the Bulgarian-Macedonian Archdiocese who served Liturgy at an military installation back in 1963 who read the Creed with "one holy orthodox and apostolic church". Wondering if some GC or other "uniats" translate the liturgical word "orthodox" to what I have heard of the "true faith", etc?

#53577 04/06/05 01:18 PM
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I've never heard of such a thing before, this would really bother me. Personally, I know I would become a thorn in the priests side if it was me.

#53578 04/06/05 03:05 PM
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Dear Athanasius,

What I would do is start quoting from St. Photius or the Council of Ephesus regarding the creed. That might get their attention.

Blessings,
Augustini

#53579 04/06/05 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by Athanasius:
The Constatinopolitan portion regarding the Holy Spirit, et al, used the phrase "One Holy Ecumenic, and Apostolic church..." Yes, Ecumenic. This, to me, is clearly not the same as Catholic/Universal.
Dear Athanasius,

I had not heard of such a usage/rendering before this. The current liturgical Greek is "katholike." I think it is undisputed that it means universal, catholic. Now, the Slavonic uses "sobornaia" which means conciliar. I have never seen a study of why this might be. This is not a Nikonianism and there is not any variant usage I am aware of. Greek Catholics use the same verbiage.

So, perhaps some well-meaning individual knowing the Greek means universal and the Slavonic conciliar decided (!) upon ecumenic.

Liturgical texts for the fixed portions of the Liturgy are usually issued with a bishop's blessing. Whose blessing does this text have?

The Romanians have been influenced by their Slav neighbors especially so in matters of Church. At least this [biserica.org] text of the Liturgy in Romanian uses "sobornicească." Nevertheless it seems that if universal/catholic is not used the only option is conciliar but I have not seen that. "Ecumenic" is really a surprise.

T

#53580 04/06/05 10:05 PM
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Tony wrote:
Now, the Slavonic uses "sobornaia" which means conciliar. I have never seen a study of why this might be. This is not a Nikonianism and there is not any variant usage I am aware of. Greek Catholics use the same verbiage.
Somewhere I remember reading that for the Slavs �sobornaja� was not understood so much as �conciliar� but more so as �universal brotherhood�. I can�t remember where I read this right now (although something in the back of my mind is suggesting Kucharick). If I think of it later and have a chance to check the source I�ll post it.

#53581 04/06/05 10:42 PM
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"sobornuiu" in the Church-Slavonic texts is not a polemical translation, as can be seen from its use among both Orthodox and Greek-Catholics without a problem (the form "Katholicheskuiu" exists in Church Slavonic, but it is rarely encountered in the texts - Check the Sunday of the Fathers for one of those rare examples).
"Ecumenical" in English translations of the Creed is a blatantly obvious avoidance of "Catholic", just as various Uniate euphemisms are blatantly obvious avoidance of the word "Orthodox". Ugh - and a pox on both these linguistic atrocities.

Incognitus

#53582 04/07/05 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by Administrator:
Somewhere I remember reading that for the Slavs �sobornaja� was not understood so much as �conciliar� but more so as �universal brotherhood�. I can�t remember where I read this right now (although something in the back of my mind is suggesting Kucharick). If I think of it later and have a chance to check the source I�ll post it.
Administrator,

I would be interested in seeing that. I think it would be quite a stretch to universal brotherhood. Where is the universal or the brotherhood in sobor?

T

#53583 04/07/05 12:34 PM
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Kucharek does discuss this on page 547 of �The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom�, but only in passing. He defines it (for the Slavs) as �gathered together�, �conciliar� or �synodal�. Now I have to try to remember which author included the flavor of �universal brotherhood�. And I remember that it sounded so logical when I read it�.


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