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#55163 11/07/03 04:34 PM
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Dear LT,

I tried, but after my tiff with the Administrator yesterday, my profile is blocked.

When I've gotten upset before, I've messed around with it etc.

I think the Administrator is on to me, so he blocked it and I can't get in now.

If you want to privately tell me to shut up about the shower thing - I will!

Alex

#55164 11/07/03 04:46 PM
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No, I wanted to talk about something else. smile

#55165 11/07/03 04:54 PM
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Dear LT,

The Administrator came through once again . . . wink

Alex

#55166 11/07/03 05:39 PM
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Dear Alex,

I would venture to say that St. Augustine's views were an influence in the "stain" of OS idea. We agree that he was a great theologian and Bishop, but not perfect. :-) BTW, I didn't know that he's only considered "Blessed" in the Orthodox Churches.

To answer your first question about why the Original Sin is mentioned in the definition of the IC, it's because they are linked. The Theotokos did not have the deficiency of sanctifying grace-- her state of grace was perfect, just as Eve's was before the fall. Pope Pius IX DID use the phrase "free from all stain of original sin" to define the IC, that's true.

Perhaps the problem isn't with the word "stain", but what is meant by "stain." Along with loss of sanctifying grace, there were other consequences of OS-- the darkening of our intellect, concupicence, physical suffering and death. "Stain" COULD be applied to these consequences, indicating the imperfection of our original nature.

And I know that the Eastern Orthodox don't so much disagree with the IC as they simply don't see a need to dogmatize it.

Sigh... we say the same thing, but in veyr different languages.


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
#55167 11/07/03 05:54 PM
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Dear Karen,

You say "to-MAY-to" and I say "to-MAH-to."

It didn't help to have catechism books that portrayed black marks on one's heart . . .

To go to confession, I used to take a good bath (scrubbed all over), wore a pure white shirt and then after my penance, tried hard to picture a snow-white peaked mountain . . .

O.K., I need help . . .

Have a great weekend.

Alex

#55168 11/07/03 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Saintclare74:
Dear Alex,

BTW, I didn't know that he's only considered "Blessed" in the Orthodox Churches.

I believe that in the Orthodox Church there really isn't a distinction between blessed and saint. In the same way, in the Roman Church it is common to refer to St. Bede and Venerable Bede. I have seen some Orthodox writers who refer to Augustine as "Saint".

Justin

#55169 11/08/03 05:10 AM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Karen,

You say "to-MAY-to" and I say "to-MAH-to."

It didn't help to have catechism books that portrayed black marks on one's heart . . .

To go to confession, I used to take a good bath (scrubbed all over), wore a pure white shirt and then after my penance, tried hard to picture a snow-white peaked mountain . . .

O.K., I need help . . .

Have a great weekend.

Alex
LOL, thanks Alex, you too!


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
#55170 11/10/03 12:13 AM
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I am having a Great Draw towardy Orthodoxy right not especially when I was reading that some of the Wests most Predomiant saints agree that Peters Confession is the Rock of the Church not Peter himself. So I am contimplating embracing Orthodoxy with in the next 2-3yrs.

In Christ+
Daniel

#55171 11/10/03 12:33 AM
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Justin:

If my memory serves me, Venerable Bede was not canonized until this past century. He was not considered a saint but merely "on the way," awaiting documented miracles to complete the canonization process.

If I'm not mistaken, the streamlining of the process may have been what moved St. Bede from Venerable to Saint. I believe that St. Bede's previous status was equivalent to that of Mother Theresa of Calcutta who was recently proclaimed "Blessed."

In Christ,

BOB

#55172 11/10/03 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by ByzantineAscetic:
I am having a Great Draw towardy Orthodoxy right not especially when I was reading that some of the Wests most Predomiant saints agree that Peters Confession is the Rock of the Church not Peter himself. So I am contimplating embracing Orthodoxy with in the next 2-3yrs.

In Christ+
Daniel
Dear Daniel,

Peter's confession is not the rock, an error Protestants believe, Peter is-- Peter MEANS "Rock." The grammatical structure of the original Greek makes that really clear-- there's simply no one and nothing else that Jesus could have been referring to. I'd be happy to give you a link to an article I wrote explaining this.

If some Western saints thought that Peter was not the rock... well, they were simply wrong.


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
#55173 11/10/03 04:02 PM
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I would like to see the link.

Thanks
Rose

#55174 11/10/03 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Rose:
I would like to see the link.

Thanks
Rose
I'll post the whole thing here... It'll be in the Scripture section of the forum, though.


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
#55175 11/10/03 04:25 PM
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Dear StClare,

Yes, I believe there are Orthodox who also confess that it is Peter who is the rock in that passage.

The problem arises when both sides interpret what that means with respect to church jurisdiction.

The scriptures also bear out that the other Apostles likewise followed Peter in making the same confession.

And Peter founded the Church of Antioch and that of Alexandria (through his assistant, St Mark) before founding Rome etc.

It was because there was only one Apostolic See in the West, Rome, that the West focused its attention on that See alone.

But Peter founded two major Sees in the East - not to mention Peter's role in Jerusalem - and in many towns and villages.

It was inevitable that "collegiality" would develop strongly in the East as a result.

Alex

#55176 11/10/03 04:28 PM
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Hi Alex,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Yep, I know... I'm not really concerned about how the confession that Peter is the rock on which Christ built His Church is understood, I'm more concerned that we as Apostolic Christians believe it! :-)

I just posted my article in the Focus On Scritpure section... it's called "Peter Is the Rock" or something like that...


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
#55177 11/10/03 04:31 PM
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Dear Justin,

In fact, medieval Catholicism made no distinction between "Blessed" and "Saint" before canonization procedures became formalized under the popes.

The term "Blessed" in Orthodoxy could have three different meanings.

It could mean the same as "Venerable" does in the West, that private veneration of someone on the way to canonization is to be had. (The Orthodox don't beatify, as you know, but canonize Saints in accordance with levels of public veneration - thus St so and so could only be a saint for an eparchy and when his or her cult "expands" they are canonized again or else placed in a wider calendar).

The term "Blessed" could also mean a category of Saint whose sanctity was unknown to the public, but was revealed by others after the Saint's repose. And this cannot apply to the famous Augustine of Hippo.

Finally, this term is sometimes used as a form of "diminished canonization" for a Father who, in the view of the Orthodox Church, held views that were, in some sense, at variance with what the Church later came to codify.

Thus, Blessed Jerome, Blessd Theodoret, Blessed Gregory of Nyssa and Blessed Augustine.

But, you are right, not every Orthodox Church agrees on the subject of the same saint.

The Greek Church calls Augustine: "St Augustine the Great" - a title that exceeds even that of the Latin Church for him.

Alex

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