www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why is getting caught up in the liturgy such a bad thing?

Ok here is the setup. I am trying to get this through my head.

Today, a friend of mine who attends the same local parish that my family belongs to was telling me about the Triduum at the local parish, How beautiful the liturgy is, etc. Then I told him about Holy Week with the Eastern Parish that we have been attending. Then out of left field he looks at me and tells me "Look it is all Jesus, don't get so caught up in the extras."

So there I was and hit upside the head. This isn't the first time this has happened. But what I am trying to figure out is where this is coming from. Why is it ok for a western parish to pull out the incense and decorate the Church on Easter, yet it becomes "Extras" in the Eastern Churches.

Thanks for letting me rant...

John

Actually, I think he has that backwards. The incense and church decorations usually occur in RC churches around Christmas and Easter. In the west, those are extras, since they are not normally done. The incense and such are routine in the East, so much so that we take them for granted.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinu Voskrese!

Dear John, our priest is bi-ritual but only celebrates the Latin on very rare occasions anymore.

After our Vespers of Holy Saturday he celebrated the Paschal Vigil for a Franciscan convent here who are Fransciscans of the Perpetual Adoration and are very traditional (our Pascha Matins was later than theirs, so he celebrated theirs before ours).

Anyway, when the sister who usually plans out the logistics proudly told Father that all of the prophecy readings were to be used, he replied back that he had just come from fifteen, and they were quite amazed.

This isn't going well... I can't seem to explain myself very well.

I guess I am asking why there seems to be a bias against the physical worship of the Byzantine Church with many roman catholics.

If I were to go to a Latin Mass (1962) I wouldn't be told to "Not get caught up in the extras" whereas when I attend the Byzantine Church I am told that.

Am I being at all clear?

I think a problem in the west among the post-Vatican II "reformers," has been an attitude of "look what wonderful things we have done for you." By that I mean, some who were/are most responsible for destroying tradition and liturgy in the west, think they did the Church a service. There are reverent Latin Rite Masses, as well as holy, and competent priests. Some masses, however, are quite pedestrian. The music is tacky, everything is rushed to get it over within an hour, it's heavy on the touchy-feely, etc. Add anything to the bare-bones "mass for the TV generation," and it seems like you are adding highly unusual "extras." I think some who most desired to be liberated from the tyranny of the past (tradition), are now enslaved by banality. Yes, our Eastern liturgies contain more. Aren't you glad they do?

There is nothing new under the sun. In my younger days, one of the nastiest epithets used to damn a layman, seminarian, or junior priest was (and still is in some circles) "amator liturgiarum". Father Louis Bouyer reports that when he was a theological student a professor told him in no uncertain terms that it was obvious that he wasn't a "real Catholic" because "real Catholics" aren't interested in such things as liturgy and the Bible.

Incognitus

John,

The Orthodox not in communion with Rome say that the Pope is the first Protestant. I don't know about that but the American (fomerly known as Roman) are certainly Protestant. The majority of them have become so barren and meaningless that I simply would not attend. I take my Theology classes up to St. John Cantius and, as you know, to Annunciation. I want them to actually experience worship before the finish the class.

Dan L

Thought if you had a correct understanding, then Jesus was the liturgy, as in its all about worship of Him. No?
Stephanos I
So actually shouldnt you be caught up in him the source of all being and creation?

DEAREST DAN LAUFFER,

I JUST WAN TO CORRECT THIS PHRASE:

"real Catholics" aren't interested in such things as liturgy and the Bible."

CATHOLICS CENTERED THEIR LIVES IN THE LITURGY AND THE BIBLE. BUT, SADLY, BECAUSE OF THE WORLD TODAY, MANY CATHOLICS ARE DISTRACTED.

PEACE OF CHRIST,
BRO. FRANCIS MARY, OSF
CATHOLIC MONK

Brother,

That wasn't my quote. I think it was written sarcastically in someone elses' post.

Dan L

Dear Brother Francis et al,
As I thought my post made clear, the bit about how "real Catholics aren't interested in liturgy or the Bible" is indeed a quote - Father Louis Bouyer, who supplies it, was quoting an un-named Professor of his in his seminary days, which would now be about 70 years or so ago. I reminded the readers of that quote (which Father Bouyer, one of the most important liturgical scholars of the past 200 years, saw fit to publish as indicative of the problems we face) to make the point that the problem which has produced this thread is NOT new.

Incognitus

That's the PROTESTANT way of looking at things
that dominates most of the post-conciliar
Western Church. Protestants have no Liturgy,
therefore they can't understand why anyone
would be attracted to such things.

Sadly, most Western Churches no longer have
a Liturgy to be "caught up in".............

I am going to open up some to you guys. At one time in my dark past I was neo-pagan. But even when I was so off base, I was considered a wacky fundamentalist by other pagans because I insisted that the group that I founded worship the gods, not just do empty ritual and pat ourselves on the back on how much power we raised.

I look back on those dark days and know that God was preparing me to be Catholic. Even then I knew that the worship of God was more than simply sitting in a room and listening and singing. Since man is physical, he needs physical means to encounter the Lord.

This is where I started to know that man is hardwired for God, the elaborate ritual of the ancient pagan religions show this. They were reaching out for something greater than themselves, while in darkness, while stumbling around, they picked up grains of truth, such as God gave them their food, God was to be worshiped. These threads were picked up by Christian Missionaries and were the roads they used to teach the non-believers.

My wife and I went to Holy week at Annunciation in Homer Glen this last week. We made all services, and we were going to stay home since we made the vigil. However, my wife and I decided that it was proper for us to attend the morning of Pascha. So we left the kids at home (they were really tired because we stayed up past midnight when we got home from the vigil) and went and were not sorry. Next year, the kids are going, no matter how much they grumble.

In my opinion, the so called "Extras" are not window dressing, they are deep and symbolic part of Christian Worship, many of them reach back into our roots of the our Jewish Brothers from the Temple rituals. I am just frustrated with the idea that one can have a big mac, when right next to it is a nice piece of prime rib. In our Fast Food Culture, in the rush to feed the masses, I believe that we have omitted basic nutrition.

Anyway... thanks for letting me rant...

John, your question and post really is the tip of a very complex iceberg, weaving philisophical, cultural, and spiritual elements into the milleu.

Therein lies a fairly significant departure from Eastern and Western Christian approaches to worship. As one can see especially vivid with the Russian Old Believers, worship and our whole Christian life is an organic whole. The "smells and bells" are absolutely part and parcel of our life, of our continually partaking of the Kingdom here and now. We spare no expense in returning beautiful worship to God who has bestowed a beautiful life and creation to us, and who has Risen from the dead for us.

The Western approach has undeniably been influenced by the scholastic philisophical distinctions between "essential" and "accidentals". This has unfortunately developed in come quarters into an almost empirical approach to worship and the sacraments. "The bottom line" so to speak, what is the absolutely bare minimum to get the job done.

And as your encounter with your friend shows, there is still an almost crypto-dualistic behavoir in some Christians, in that they only want splendor on their terms, in their way, and when anyone else is trying to share their own vision and style of positive liturgical experience other than that, that of the other becomes secondary to their own very subjective one.

Now, couple that with the undercurrent of praestantia ritus Latinae still very present in the minds of some Latins, i.e. that somehow the Latin liturgy is superior, and add on to that the American sense of utilitarian consumerism, of fast-food approach to everything, and perhaps you might be able to get behind some of that attitude.

Now I think I am the one not making any sense here.

You know, I understand precisely what you are saying. It makes good sense to me.