www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Logic approach

Using a system of logic to understand the differnces between the theoligical interpretations
of the roman rite and the byzantine rite you would arrive at 4 conclusion
1. Both are wrong
2. One is write and the other is wrong
3. one is complete and the other incomplete
4. both are incomplete

Often I hear it is said by clergy we are all saying the same thing. This is not logical and is a pastoral response to unity. I dont think are interpretions should be something that causes division. God is far beyond are understanding. On the other hand, there needs to be a more logical approach. Any ideas?
Thanks Broric.

What about the idea that both are correct?

Dmitri

My friend that is not logical. Two systems of thought do not equall one.

A ritual patrimony is not a system of thought.

Kurt

Who said faith was logical?

Dmitri

Dmitri,

Do BC's beleive that the "extra merits" one aquired to obtain salvation are able to be distributed to others since they were not really used?

At the first vatican council, the fathers declaried that faith and reason are compatible. Reason leads to faith. Using a system of thought to understand a dogma and by faith believeing in that dogma. Of course faith is not logical but we use logical to understand what we put faith in.

Hello:


Actually it is logical. Two different statements that are not mutually contrary or contradictory may be both true.

Two mutually contrary statements might have different truth values or else both are false.

Two mutually contradictory statements must have different truth values.

Byzantine dogmatic theology doesn't contradict Roman dogmatic theology.

Both tradtions share what is essential to the Christian Faith. The things that we don't share, are not essential to the Christian Faith.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

I assume you are talking about indulgences.
That question recently came-up amongst the Byzantines in our parish during the Jubilee Year. My understanding is that indulgences as taught by the West are not technically an Eastern belief as our idea of Purgatory is less defined. So, although we believe in praying for the dead, we cannot know exaclty what happens during the "time of purification" after death. Therefor, although this idea is personnaly conforting to me to think that what we do either for ourselves or others in this life may affect how long we are cleansed in the next, it is a gray area. Of course, I bow to others on this forum who I am sure have a better understanding.

Dmitri.

Dear Dmitri and OorDeath,

An interesting point on merits and purgatory.

During the Council of Florence, St Mark Eugenikos, Archbishop of Ephesus, attended as, believe it or not, an Orthodox hierarch who was "pro-union" with the West.

St Mark believed that whatever else Rome held that was at variance with the East, God would eventually correct all if, and only if, the West would agree to formally remove the "Filioque" from the Creed.

St Mark required this as a minimum condition for unity.

He didn't even require the West to abjure its belief in the Filioque, only its removal from the Universal Creed held by all the Churches.

And we know the rest of the story here . . .

When it came to the subject of Purgatory and merits etc., St Mark realized that the West was quite different on this point as well.

Both Greek and Latin sides of the debate held that souls which were not purified, needed such before attaining union with God.

Both sides believed that prayer for the souls of the departed helped to bring them closer to God etc.

But the problem was that the West had come to understand the afterlife as defined in "places" with Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and, then, Limbo.

The East did not see the afterlife as defined in such categories since is does not believe that people go directly to Heaven until after the Second Coming when we will be reunited with our bodies.

Where the souls of the righteous go after death is a kind of "forecourt" of Heaven awaiting the Final Judgement.

In addition, prayer for the dead in the Eastern Orthodox Church is quite the dynamic thing where we also make prayer for the saints and even the Most Holy Mother of God (see the priest's prayers following the Canon in the Liturgy).

The West was married to a kind of "static" understanding of union with God, but it is not defined as doctrine and Western theologians are reexamining these points in the light of Eastern patristic teaching.

"Merits" is part of the "accountancy" perspective of the West that is truly foreign to the East.

St Seraphim of Sarov, however, did believe that our prayers, fasts and good works were part of our storing up of treasure in heaven, but that is as far as it went.

Alex