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#57022 11/08/06 04:59 PM
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Philip's fast is quickly approaching. Is this a simple fast, strict fast, how are we supposed to fast?

I know that the fasting guidelines vary from church-to-church. Our priest is out of town and will not be back until after the fast has begun, so I can not ask him directly. I can't remember from last year.

I am Ukranian Catholic, if that helps.

If this is a strict fast, with no dairy or eggs, I better start chomping down. I have a lot of cheese in the fridge. After the Great Fast, I simply can not eat enough cheese! biggrin

#57023 11/08/06 05:21 PM
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http://byzantineevangelization.com/resources/pfpraxis.htm

Here's one resource I found. I don't recall having heard the M,W,F / T,TH split on dairy before.

http://www.iarelative.com/xmas/philip.htm

Here's another that says it is for Byzantine Catholics, and says the 40 days has been commuted to 15, and the fasting commuted to a recommendation.

#57024 11/08/06 05:25 PM
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It should be no different than the Lenten Fast.

#57025 11/08/06 05:27 PM
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The OCA website has small differences between the Lenten and Nativity fasts.

http://www.oca.org/OCFasting.asp?SID=2

Quote
While most Orthodox Christians are perhaps aware of the general rules of fasting for Great Lent, the rules for the other fasting periods are less known. During the Dormition Fast, wine and oil are allowed only on Saturdays and Sundays (and sometimes on a few feast days and vigils). During the Apostles' Fast and the Nativity Fast, the general rules are as follows (from Chapter 33 of the Typikon):

"It should be noted that in the Fast of the Holy Apostles and of the Nativity of Christ, on Tuesday and Thursday we do not eat fish, but only oil or wine. On Monday, Wednesday and Friday, we eat neither oil nor wine.... On Saturday and Sunday we eat fish. If there occur on Tuesday or Thursday a Saint who has a [Great] Doxology, we eat fish; if on Monday, the same; but if on Wednesday or Friday, we allow only oil and wine.... If it be a Saint who has a Vigil on Wednesday or Friday, or the Saint whose temple it is, we allow oil and wine and fish.... But from the 20th of December until the 25th, even if it be Saturday or Sunday, we do not allow fish."

#57026 11/08/06 05:43 PM
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Also, a quick search on here yeilds three discussions on here, but I know there are more...
https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=search_tng;d=results;record=2454048-163942-D959

#57027 11/08/06 05:46 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Wondering:
The OCA website has small differences between the Lenten and Nativity fasts.

http://www.oca.org/OCFasting.asp?SID=2

Quote
While most Orthodox Christians are perhaps aware of the general rules of fasting for Great Lent, the rules for the other fasting periods are less known. During the Dormition Fast, wine and oil are allowed only on Saturdays and Sundays (and sometimes on a few feast days and vigils). During the Apostles' Fast and the Nativity Fast, the general rules are as follows (from Chapter 33 of the Typikon):

"It should be noted that in the Fast of the Holy Apostles and of the Nativity of Christ, on Tuesday and Thursday we do not eat fish, but only oil or wine. On Monday, Wednesday and Friday, we eat neither oil nor wine.... On Saturday and Sunday we eat fish. If there occur on Tuesday or Thursday a Saint who has a [Great] Doxology, we eat fish; if on Monday, the same; but if on Wednesday or Friday, we allow only oil and wine.... If it be a Saint who has a Vigil on Wednesday or Friday, or the Saint whose temple it is, we allow oil and wine and fish.... But from the 20th of December until the 25th, even if it be Saturday or Sunday, we do not allow fish."
Correct. I should have been clear in saying there is no difference in regards to dairy and eggs, which it seems is what the question was about.

http://www.abbamoses.com/fasting.html

#57028 11/08/06 05:50 PM
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Thank you. I think what I will do for now, begining at sundown on the 14th, is keep the strict fast, until I can clarify with our priest.

I guess I better stop shopping the cheese/milk sales. Menu for this week: Cheese enchaladas, cheese quesidillas, cheese & bean burittos, mac & cheese, cheese soup...

Yup! I'm a big cheese head biggrin

Lucky I don't eat fish... :p

#57029 11/08/06 06:42 PM
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Hi,
I'm just trying to learn more; not passing judgment.

Does no meat equal no fish?

Why so many rules and rule changes in the Orthodox Philipian fast?

I understand that dairy is a meat byproduct, but why is oil prohibited?

Thanks for your help in understanding this.

Peace,
Indigo

#57030 11/08/06 09:38 PM
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Indigo,

This quote from the same OCA page on fasting explains the rule changes.

Quote
We note here that there are many local variations in the allowances of wine and oil (and sometimes fish), such as on patronal feast days of a parish or monastery, or when the feast of a great Saint (or Saints) is celebrated which has particular local or national significance.

What "precisely do the rules of fasting demand? Neither in ancient nor in modern times has there ever been exact uniformity, but most Orthodox authorities agree on the following rules: ...

It has always been held that these rules of fasting should be relaxed in the case of anyone elderly or in poor health. In present-day practice, even for those in good health, the full strictness of the fast is usually mitigated.... On weekdays-except, perhaps, during the first week or Holy Week-it is now common to eat two cooked meals daily instead of one. From the second until the sixth week, many Orthodox use wine, and perhaps oil also, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and less commonly on Mondays as well. Permission is often given to eat fish in these weeks. Personal factors need to be taken into account, as for example, the situation of an isolated Orthodox living in the same household as non-Orthodox, or obliged to take meals in a factory or school [lunchroom]. In cases of uncertainty each should seek the advice of his or her spiritual father [emphasis mine]."

The following statement is extremely important to consider when we speak of fasting and fasting rules in the Church. "At all times it is essential to bear in mind that 'you are not under the law but under grace' (Rom. 6:14), and that 'the letter kills, but the spirit gives life' (2 Cor. 3:6). The rules of fasting, while they need to be taken seriously, are not to be interpreted with dour and pedantic legalism; 'for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit' (Rom. 14:17)."
This is Protopresbyter Alexander Lebedeff's explanation of the prohibition of oil.
Quote
The bottom line is clear from the Typikon itself: days on which oil is not permitted are called "dry eating" days which means basically no fried foods, and no oil in the soups or salads. The Church Fathers knew perfectly well that fried foods tasted better than boiled ones ; that soups with oil added tasted better than soups made without oil; and that salads with oil dressings tasted better than those without.

This is exactly why olives themselves are permitted on non-oil days, while olive oil isn't; and peanuts themselves are permitted on non-oil days while peanut oil is forbidden: you can't fry anything in olives or peanuts. It is not the essence of the vegetable/fruit itself -- it is what you can do with it to make other foods taste better.
Another common oil substitute is tahini. Fish is not considered the same as meat. Fish is often allowed when meat is not. Shellfish is considered neither and not abstained from, though a feast of lobster is contrary to the spirit of the fast.

#57031 11/09/06 08:42 PM
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That was helpful Wondering.Thanks.
Cypriot Bishop Athanasios commented in K. Markides Gifts of the Desert, that fasting's purpose is to get used to cutting off our desires and desires. I guess if the restrictions are exactly the same the whole time we can get used to it, but this way we're kept on our toes and don't get too comfortable.

#57032 11/12/06 06:12 PM
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How do the Melkites and the Antiochians observe St. Philip's Fast?

Gordo

#57033 11/13/06 10:23 AM
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I don't believe there is much jurisdictional variance in Orthodoxy as to how the Great Fasts are observed (pastoral differences are a different story). When I was in the AOA, the fast was kept basically as the OCA lists above. The only difference I can think of is there was a one day dispensation from fasting to observe Thanksgiving (since the AOA is on the New Calendar it falls within the Nativity Fast). I don't believe the OCA makes this provision.

In my parish now Thanksgiving does not fall within the fast, but there is a dispensation from fasting on the Friday following Thanksgiving (Friday just being a normal fasting day).

#57034 11/14/06 11:37 AM
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I liked how one said that in the Slavic tradition, beer is permitted during the fast (strict fast of Wed and Fri)
http://www.abbamoses.com/fasting.html

I have 2 questions about what to:
Nicholas of Myra falls on Wednesday, Conception of St. Anne falls on Friday. Both are strict fast days, but both are big holy days, too. I know that last year, when they fell on Tuesday and Thursday, it seems we didn't fast, but now on STRICT fast days, do we try to keep some fast, by perhaps remaining meatless only, as on Saturday/Sunday?

#57035 11/14/06 11:49 AM
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Marc,

I think the proper way of addressing your questions is to approach your pastor on this one. I know we from time to time get directives from our chancery dealing with these questions. What a particular church or jurisdiction may be allowing is hard to say.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
#57036 11/14/06 04:07 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Ilian:
The only difference I can think of is there was a one day dispensation from fasting to observe Thanksgiving (since the AOA is on the New Calendar it falls within the Nativity Fast). I don't believe the OCA makes this provision.
Ilian,

I can recall asking this question of my OCA priest friend a few years back (when I was considering joining his parish) and he indicated that dispensations are usually given for Thanksgiving. I cannot recall if it is a dispensation granted by the Metropolitan or by the individual bishops.

That might have changed, so I am not sure.

Gordo

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