The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
FireOfChrysostom, mashoffner, wietheosis, Deb Rentler, RusynRose
6,208 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 2,389 guests, and 120 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,542
Posts417,792
Members6,208
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 117
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 117
The following was written to the team who headed up the August 6 meeting and who attended a follow- up meeting on August 14 at Annunciation parish.
But hopefully for the good of the Church I take the risk to myself of posting these points in the event that they may be of help to those outside the evangelization team. As always, I invite anyone with strong disagreement or negative reaction to have the integrity to speak with me in person about these thoughts. I see this Forum as a wonderful opportunity for frank, open discussion about good things for our Church and not a platform for pettiness, personalizing and misjudgment.


Glory to Jesus Christ!

Evangelization team,

Wonderful ideas! Also wonderful was our follow up meeting which took place this past Sunday at Annunciation parish. We tried to include as best we could by phone, Gordon and Sharon. I had a very insightful conversation with Gordon on Sunday evening following our meeting and there are a couple of things that I believe are really worth addressing.

First of all, after being informed about our follow up meeting Sunday, Gordon presented a caution about the phrasing of some aspects of the "resources" segment of our initial rough draft. Since the talk of resources will inevitably include the possibility of some entities in the eparchy "dieing" in order to give life to others, Gordon was concerned that there could be some negative reactions that would subsequently result in intellectual and emotional doorslamming which would then jeopardize the great positive progress we made on Aug. 6.
I certainly agree with this and I am glad that he had the objective eye on this and communicated that to us. Gordon's thoughts, however do prompt me to present another piece of this whole thing:

I have consistently used the terms, "spiritual renewal, " "Judgement Day," "Paschal Mystery" (razing) to describe what our visioning and evangelization movement is truly, truly all about. I believe that at this point we really need to go into this area of what I describe as a fundamental spiritual shift that MUST happen in the hearts of every member of this eparchy in order for anything substantial to really take place.

We are in a period of a call to a "new evangelization." What the Church actually meant by this was to RE-evangelize the baptized non-believers! Basically what is needed in our Church and in the hearts of individuals is a rediscovery and recommitment to Jesus Christ. As Gordon said, we have to become more "kerygmatic" and I would include with that more "Charismatic" (meaning allowing the Holy Spirit into us personally, liturgically and ecclesiologically. )

Eric Scheidler brought this same thing to our attention during Sunday's meeting at Annunciation when he said that we need in a sense a "vision of the Vision." In other words the reason FOR the "vision" has to be taught: that we are to become this Church that is more closely configured to Christ and therefore the good ideas that we have, from podcasting, to missions, etc. simply become natural and logical outgrowths of having a deep sense of our mission as Church. I believe that all of you have this charism. All of you have had a genuine experience and conversion to Christ at some point in your lives and that is why the visionary ideas flow from you like honey. You and I have no problem with even the most visionary ideas. But, Gordon, and Eric have both helped me to realize that most of our Church simply is not there yet and vision and evangelization will remain strange and frightening to much of our Church until their "shift in spiritual perspective" happens.
This helps me to understand why the idea of restructuring the eparchy, combining asests and reinvesting them more fruitfully (more Biblically) is so clear and non-threatening to me but is horrifying to much of the eparchy. To me it is just remedial Christianity and I can't understand why everyone does not see something that is so clear and basic. But they don't and it is because of this foundational level commitment to a vision of Church as Christ that is the difference. When you really look at it what the vision is that most of the rank and file has of Church it really does need radical reworking. It is not their fault. It is simply what has to be worked on.

This whole spirituality of "sharing things in common" (Act 2) is something that I have always believed is our ONLY hope. Remember, I have seen it work at Annunciation in ways that I could not have imagined. The density of talent and zeal that came together when the Byzantine Catholic community in Illinois actually DID Acts 2 (not just talk about it) has brought a fruitfulness that even I could not have envisioned and it has only just begun!I want this same thing for EVEYRONE. The "sharing things in common vision" is our only hope because no matter what great ideas we come up with the answer is going to be,
"Wow! Great ideas. Sure wish we could do them all but we can't---no money--no priests."
Do you see why "resources" is so important to me? We can do some things but we cannot do the really substantial things that will change the face of our Church and make it truly a vital, dynamic Church that is making an impact and which a young man would WANT to turn his life over to.

I would like to propose something: I think we need a twofold approach: We must put "The Vision" out there for people to turn their gaze toward while at the same time we need to help them turn their gaze and hearts to The Vision.

In any discussion of this nature such as Sundayh's meeting at Annunciation, the question inevitably comes up "Do the clergy and people actually realize that there is a need for vision and renewal in their Church? The answer for the most part is NO! they don't and this is a HUGE problem. They don't know and they are also in denial. Worse: there is a prevailing mentality that "as long as my church is here to bury me I don't really care what happens to it afterwawrd."

So, first we have to bring home to the rank and file the imperative for renewal. This can be done really simply: Get everyone under the same roof at a convention, for instance and simply present the "State of the Union." Make the realities clear. Make this convention "Judgement Day" for our Church. Spell it out completely. Don't mince words and worry about "offending." I have learned that the unforgiveable sin in our Church is for one of its own to actually say that what we are doing is not working. But we MUST say it. We must confront the demon, name the disease before we can heal. Then present a vision at this convention with a message that essentially says: "We are at a serious, serious crises point but there is 'Good News' ahead and we can turn this around. We are going to the 'Superbowl,' people, and everybody gets to be a winner and here is how we can do it." I truly believe that the rank and file will get behind a strong leadeship that confidently and clearly points the direction. In fact, I truly believe that is what the rank and file is really waiting for. I believe that Bishop John is starting to taste this. More and more he is being seen as stepping out in leadership and his name is certainly being mentioned with admiration these days. The more strength our leadership shows as far as a definite direction the more the rank and file will get behind them. My impression of our rank and file is like a football team waiting for a coach to come along, pull the team together and march it down field. The players might moan and complain about the rigors involved but in the end they will be carrying that coach on their shoulders after winning the Superbowl.

After this convention we have "evangelical teams" sent around to each parish bringing the message of Christ, metanoia and vision. In the parishes a follow--up program and team would already be set up so that after the mission team leaves and moves on to the next parish the message is sustained in the parish. For instance, the mission team does something like the old fashion "parish mission week." Each evening talks are given culminating (or beginning) at the weekend Liturgies. The follow-up team takes it from there. The parish has "tasks" that it must now perform such as really looking at its situation and future, demographics, liturgy, youth presence, etc. in light of the realities of the eparchy and the spirituality of real Christian committment which the mission team presented that week at their parish. This could be done in a comprehensive way by creating prayer groups, evening study sessions and addressing the ideas from the pulpit. (The priests would be supplied with the points to stress from the pulpit.) The Eparchial Pastoral Council is going to this very thing but in regard to an appreciation of the Divine Liturgy. This program will be coming out soon. But we need this done on a foundational level.

This proposal would be end up being something like a Byzantine Catholic answer to a "revival" or "altar call." We would actually ask for a bona fide recommittment to Christ and His Church. This will predispose our rank file to vision and planning.

I am beginnig to notice something about our Church: it seems that many people who I am most impressed with in our Church and who are new to our Church and have vision and zeal are those who have come from the Charismatic renewal experience whether Protestant or Catholic. Or, they have had a "Charismatic" type experience in their spirituality. What this tells me is that the infusion of the Holy Spirit is needed in our Church even though we are fundamentally a "charismatic" Church--we just don't know it! This tells me that like leaven in the bread, God has brought people into our Church who have long since made radical committments to Christ and therefore they have no fear of visionary ideas and plans of actions. These are the people who know exactly what I mean when I say "raze the Church to the ground and rebuild it." They understand this because this has happened in their own spiritual lives and until it happens in the lives of our rank and file we will see no substantial change in our Church. I really believe it is Dueteronomy that we are living: "I present before you life or death. Choose life." My greatest concern is that without a fundamental shift in spiritual perspective we will end up with just alot of nice ideas to "tweak" a dysfunctional system and not a true renewal of our Church.

--Fr. Thomas J. Loya
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 35 | From: Annunciation Byzantine Catholic Church | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |






Printer-friendly view of this topic Hop To: Select a Forum: 1. Church News 2. Faith & Worship 3. Parish Life 4. East-N-West 5. Focus on Scripture 6. ByzanTEEN 7. Prayer 8. Evangelization 9. The Deacon's Door 10. The Kliros 11. Town Hall


Contact Us | The Byzantine Catholic Church in America


Note: www.byzcath.org is an UNOFFICIAL site of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America. The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic Church. When in doubt, check with your pastor or bishop.
Contents copyright � 1998-2005. All rights reserved.



UBB.classic� 6.7.1

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,191
Likes: 4
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,191
Likes: 4
Father,

I'm in complete agreement. We do need a change of heart or reviving before we can begin to move on our corporate theosis. Pentecost did come before the formation of the community. We need another Pentecost. Perhaps that is the nature of the Church. We are always in such a need. Just as happened at Penteost in Jerusalem the Holy Spirit came individually but as we gathered together in surrender to Him. The convocation of the Eparchy in which our Bishop speaks to all of us together challenging us with precise details of our decline but also signs of hope given by the Holy Spirit along with an "altar call" may well be just what is needed. God is convicting and calling now. I pray that something of this sort will be called by our God Loving Bishop.

Then from this we spread out in mission teams made up of a mixture of clergy but dominated by laity.

I also agree with your observation about the Charismatic nature of all of this. As you said to us when we were exploring conversion "...we are a Charismatic movement". I believe God is beginning to reveal another demonstration of that charism.

Come, Lord Jesus!

Dan L

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14
M
Junior Member
Junior Member
M Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14
Fr. Loya,

Thank you for your leadership, along with the Bishop's and the evangelization team's. You all have given us the swift kick in the pants that we need.

As a new Byzantine (from the Lutheran church), I thank you also for your encouragement of us "newbies" in faith.
However, as a newbie, i took a bit of offense at the "rank and file" language you used regarding many parishioners. It has been those people who come every Sunday, sometimes not every Sunday, sit in the pews, say little, who take a bit of effort to get to know, who have taught me the most about about church and our history. They need not to be convinced about a great need in our church (they know), but that they are the hope. WE are the hope - together - all of us of our future. Calling anyone "rank and file" doesn't seem to help that attitude, that it's all of us together that are going to pull this Vision off. Really, in my mind, it's God's vision, his gaze upon us, that we're pulling off. We're the ones who need to be convinced that we're all God made us to be.

I really liked the idea of a task force in each parish, as long as these folks are collaborative...

Mari Carlson

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 979
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 979
Upon reading what was posted above, the average parishioner is probably going to say: "What in the world are they talking about?"

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,191
Likes: 4
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,191
Likes: 4
Pavloosh,

That is probably why we are in such decline, but before I settle on that interpretation could you elaborate.

Dan L


Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2025 (Forum 1998-2025). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0