www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "we declare, we proclaim, we define..."

Dear Maximus,

Friend, I think you've gone too far in your response to OOD and you've said some things that can be offensive to Byzantine Catholics too.

For one thing, when did the Greek Orthodox ever worship the Emperor?

No more than Americans worship their flag or president.

Nationalism is a big part of life in the Orthodox Churches, yes.

But it is also so in other Western Churches, in the Polish Church from which His Holiness comes, for example.

I think one of the great things about His Holiness is that he asserts his Polish Catholicism and identity.

And I think the Eastern Orthodox Churches (and Oriental Churches) can teach us westerners a thing or two about inculturating the Gospel.

OOD isn't such a bad fellow, really. He may come across as a bit strident.

But he, like you, is dedicated to his Church and to the message of Christ as preached within it.

Alex

Dear Gentlemen:

As I understand it the Pope only speaks "Ex Cathedra" when defining dogma.

There have only been two examples when the Pope's definitions have been proclaimed infallible.

1. Pope Pius IX when he proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God.

2. Pope Pius XII when he proclaimed the dogma of the Assumption into heaven of the Virgin.

I could be wrong, but that is what I have always heard and read.

I think that the proclamation of Papal Infallibility was more an object of moral support for the position of the Pope than for any ulterior power motive.

I have never heard a Papal statement formally proclaimed infallible, but I have heard the Pope go out of his way to say that the statement he was making was not infallible.

defreitas

Dear Defreitas,

Right you are, Friend in Christ!

And it was Bl. Pope John XXIII (he had quite a wonderful sense of humour) who liked to say:

"I'm only infallible when I speak ex cathedra. And I shall never speak ex cathedra!"

(Don't you just love him?)

Alex

Orthodox C,

I think you are right. I suppose I get going a little at times. I am a guest here and I really don't want to start insulting people.

Sorry to all Orthodox or Eastern Christians for my mean remarks.


Justin

Defreitas, what constitutes a formal pronouncement? Does the pope have to literally say: "This is a big one". It just seems really ambiguous.

------------------
Orthodox Catholic, I respect that Maximus is saying what he feels. Let's get it all out and talk about it, and may the loudest one win

------------------
Maxumus, I understand your frustration but I think some statements misrepresent the truth.

I have heard the accusation that the Orthodox are just national Churches before. But consider that one day, when you say: "But Lord, they just seemed like national Churches", you may hear as a reply: "Each of these peoples who embraced me made me their own and their very identity. And I embraced them"

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Dear Justin,

Never mind, you are wonderful and I wouldn't have you any other way!

I find you exciting and passionate. I think you should run a religious singles club to get committed Christian couples together!

Have a great day!

Alex

OrthodoxyorDeath,

Why do you put words into our Lord's mouth?

Joe Thur
Deacon-student

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Joe,

Actually, it was Maximus who called them so which is why OOD made the response he did.

But we've calmed down a bit and are actually learning to love each other's company.

Would you like to join our group?

Alex

I think there is some confusion here over the charism of infallibility as exercised by the pope. This is not a positive charism, it is a negative charism. It does not mean the pope can proclaim something and make it dogma, it means he cannot make erroneous things dogma. The charism of infalliblity is given to the Church -- the Latins call it the sensus fidelium or sense of the faithful -- the Orthodox claim this is the reason the "reunion" brokered at Florence was rejected, the bishops accepted but the people did not. In the Latin Church the charism is exercised first by the people (St. Vicent of Lerins defined it as "what all Christians in all times and places always believed"), then by the ordinary magisterium (the pope and the bishops in communion with him) and finally, in very rare cases, by the pope (as was noted above, only twice in history has this been used).

Edward, deacon and sinner

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father Deacon!

Actually, I think the Orthodox, the Protestants and some Catholics have considered this charism to be negative for some time . . .

Kidding, kidding . . .

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

But your Orthodox Coptic Church can official teach pro abortion - which is a Church fallen into heresy.

The Coptic Orthodox Church does not teach "pro-abortion", and is not in heresy.

The Coptic Church are not Orthodox, they were excommunicated at the 4th Oecumenical Council.

Oh dear, not this again...

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Mor Ephrem ]

Alex,

With regard to the request for a blessing I respond in the affirmative.

With regard to the negative comments on the negative aspect of infallibility I must respond in the negative.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Orthodox C,

Thank you for the kind words.


Mor E,

I stand corrected.

Dear Max,

Just don't let it happen again! :p

P.S. I read your profile...my friend, we have similar interests; for instance, I love the female shape...one in particular . And of course, good bloody fights are a staple... (meant to be a bloodied face )

I'm sorry, I might have misunderstood this quote, but the Coptic Orthodox Church does not support abortion. Our stand is that the ONLY case in which abortion is permitted, is when the mother's life is in danger, that is all.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!