www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology John Paul II the Great ???

Alex,

I'm not surprised that blessed JPII had certain feelings about Russian spirituality...but from a Polish view, his workings with Germans really opens eyes...especially Slavic.

james

Dear Panie Jakubie,

There is simply no limit to what the Grace of Christ our God may accomplish!

Niech bedzie pochwalony Jezus Christus, Panie!

Aleksandr

Dear friends:

I hope you don't get mad with my post.

Pope John Paul II was certainly one of the most charismatic leaders of modern history, he indeed gained the personal respect of other religious and political leaders of opposed ideologies by developing tides and dialogue with them (OstPolitik, Ecumenism, support of UN, peace talks, inter-religious prayer-gatherings).

I don't doubt that by doing this he attempted to get a better treatment for Christians in Communist and Muslim countries but quite frankly it didn't work. The Chinese continue to suffer under their government, the Jews have become virulently anti-Christian, the Muslims attack and burn churches and the secularists have destroyed every aspect of the Christian civilization in the once "Catholic" Europe.

The state of the Roman Church according to the statistics after John Paul II's papacy is sometimes disastrous: in Latin-America the Pentecostals and other sects attract millions of people whose religious needings are not fulfiled by their original Church, in Europe Christianity is almost dead, in Africa and Asia syncretism prevails among the Catholic minority, the number of priests-monks-religious has declined incredibly after Pope John Paul II's papacy.

The Ecumenical Patriarch said that the fruits of Ecumenism will appear sooner or later but it's clear that this has failed. The Protestants are even more Protestant than before and have not been influenced by Traditional Cjhristianity, John paul II almost knelt before Arz. Christodoulos but Orthodox and Cathoplics are very far from reaching union. Among the Orthodox (and Traditionalist Catholics as well), the modern Roman Church is seen as a tool of the Western political establishment and its liberalism, free-trade, globalization policies.

Mexican- He has been dead less than a year and you are already declaring his pontificate a failure? He inherited a disaster and, taking the long view, left the Church the legacy it will need for generations of renewal.
Your opinions re ecumenism are well known to us and I wouldn't expect you to support JPII's efforts.
As for your view that Protestantism is more Protestant than ever, may I call your attention to the recent book by Evangelical scholar Mark Noll Is the Reformation Over? , which explores the growing openness to Catholicism among Protestants.
I would agree with your assessment that the neoconservatives have nearly hijacked Catholic Social Teaching, through their devious misrepresentation of social doctrine, and that JPII may have not been vigilant enough with those who postured as his friends, but his own pronouncements never waivered in their critique of so-called capitalism [in truth "corporatism" better describes global economic imperialism]. But I have no doubt that misperception will be corrected.
All in all, the Holy Father left us with an incredible body of theological work, as well as increased good will toward the Church. The John Paul generation of priests and religious are beginning to have a great impact.

The Catholic Church will weather what storms remain.

-Daniel

While reading and researching blessed JPII book Witness to Hope, I came upon a great concern of his and a reference to the Hartford Appeal for Theological Affirmation, a ecumenical response to modernity, with input from Orthodoxy and others...again which lead to this article regarding Consequences of Bad Theology, it's in 2 parts but worth the read, as Pope, he had much on his platter during his papacy, just as Pope Benedict XVI has...

http://ignatiusinsight.com/features/jnavone_badtheology1.asp

I would not come to a firm conclusion to judgement so quickly concerning his papacy...

james

Dear Friends,

In actual fact, the pilgrims coming to visit Pope John Paul the Great's tomb daily are many . . .

EVEN if something could be found to criticize about his papacy, that, in and of itself, would have NO bearing on his personal sanctity nor would it scar the greatness of his many, objectively approved, achievements.

When Pope John Paul died, I remember watching Orthodox Jews following the events in Rome and reading about him - at airports and other places.

I was in the Grand Republic to the South (USA) at the time and saw U.S. flags go down to half-mast everywhere - I don't remember ever seeing such a spontaneous salute to the memory of a Catholic Pope!

The shadow Pope John Paul II cast, in life and in death, was of such size that it covered many millions of people.

I would say such a papacy was successful!

Alex

This might be true but they are not going to Mass on Sunday when they get back home.

This might offend many on this board but it is how I feel and I think many feel. Those who don't like it will have to respect that it is my opinion. Like Mexican pointed out I don't think his Pontificate was a great success.

I still deeply respected JPII on his pro-life message. I think this should be his greatest positive legacy. He not only preached but lived his pro-life message.

Dear Ray,

How do you know they don't go to Mass when they get home?

My point is not to convince those who are not so convinced (including Mexican).

My point is that the majority around the world do in fact see the Pontiff as Great and this is what is speeding his canonization process.

And, don't worry, you won't be forced to pray to him once he becomes a Saint and a Doctor of the Church!

Cheers, Big Guy!

I'm outta here!

Alex

Alex,

It was interesting to find out that that the late Holy Father's tomb was frequently closed off during periods of my trip to Rome following Christmas and into the New Year. With an influx of people there, I guess the call was made to make the area inaccessible: our guide said that the crowds were enormous to get in.

Do you think that John Paul II's appreciation of Russian Spirituality may have come from his mother? Am I correct in recalling that she was a Byzantine-rite Catholic?

Cheers,

Cyril

The Pope was Jewish says historian

LINEAGE: Pope John Paul A MANCHESTER historian has claimed that Pope John Paul II was Jewish.

Yaakov Wise says his study into the the maternal ancestry of Karol Josef Wojtyla (John Paul II's real name) has revealed startling conclusions.

Mr Wise, a researcher in orthodox Jewish history and philosophy, said the late Pope's mother, grandmother and great-grandmother were all probably Jewish and came from a small town not far from Krakow.

The Pope was a priest and cardinal archbishop in the Polish city before his election to the papacy.

Mr Wise said: "According to orthodox Judaism, a person's Jewish identity is passed down through the maternal line. I saw a photograph of the Pope's mother and I showed it to people who didn't know who she was.

"They all said she looked Jewish. So I started doing more investigations about her background."

Although he believes the Pope's father was an ethnic Pole, he thinks that John Paul's mother Emilia Kaczorowski - Emily Katz in English - was Jewish and that she was the daughter of Feliks Kaczowski, a businessman from Biala-Bielsko in Poland. Katz is a common surname amongst East European Jewish families.

Emilia's mother, the Pope's grandmother, was Maria Anna Scholz. Scholz, or Schulze, is also a common surname among Jews, as is Rybicka, or Ryback, which is the surname of the Pope's great-grandmother Zuzanna.

All the names or their variations appear on gravestones in the old Biala Jewish cemetery, as does the surname of Felik's mother Urszula Maklinowska. Mr Wise said: "The Pope's ancestry has been researched by an American historian.

"But nobody has traced the family name through the Jewish community and, as Jewish historian, I have access to information that a non-Jewish historian wouldn't know about.

"I'm not making any firm conclusions, but what I'm saying is that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to say that he was Jewish.

"The Pope's mother married out of the Jewish community to wed a Catholic. Her children were born and raised as Catholics and the Pope was baptised. It would shed light on why the Pope had to go into hiding from the Nazis in November 1940.

"If he had been a pure ethnic Pole this would not have been necessary.

"It would also explain why this Pope in particular felt a strong desire to improve relations between the Church of Rome and the Jewish people."

by Riazat Butt

Why not, our first Pope was Jewish too!

Oh yeah, so is our God's mom!!!

Let me pose a question my dear forum friends, where would Eastern Europe/Iron Curtain countries be today if there was no election of blessed + Pope John Paul II ? He did have a little input...and let's look at the positive fruits of his papacy...

just my random thoughts...

james

Dear Cyril,

Yes, the late Pope's mother was actually a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic - something that has been confirmed subsequently . . .

Ukrainian TV aired an interview with the Pope's two Ukrainian cousins (on his mother's side) who live today in Tarnopil in Western Ukraine.

So his interest in Eastern spirituality would have come from a sense of his Eastern roots in some way but also due to his width of intellectual perspicacity and vision.

He was devoted to the Rosary - and where did that come from if not from an 8th century Eastern monk and his vision of the Mother of God?

Traditionally, Poles never use the term "Ukrainian Catholic" but only "Greek-Catholic" which could, of course, denote more than one nationality.

During World Youth Day 2002, I met a Polish priest who wandered into the legislature in search of a washroom . . .

I told him I was "Greek-Catholic" and he smiled broadly and said that his mother was Greek-Catholic too!

I then began to speak to him in Ukrainian and he understood quite well . . .

As they say, "We found one another!"

Alex

Dear Dr Eric (the Well-Read),

That is entirely possible as Jews often did marry Catholics, were baptised and their Jewish ancestry was all but unrecorded.

Whether the Pope himself was cognizant of this Jewish ancestry would be another question.

The fact is that he assisted many Jews during the war.

He met a Polish Jewish woman, freshly escaped from a death camp, who fainted on the road. He carried her into a nearby village and obtained assistance for her, giving her water etc.

As he was about to make his leave, the woman grabbed his arm and said, "Tell me your name, friend!" And he said, "Karol Wojtyla!"

33 years later, the same woman read that a "Karol Wojtyla" was elected Pope.

She wrote him a long letter in Polish (and ANY letter in Polish addressed to him went to a separate correspondence unit at the Vatican - I know).

The Pope remembered her and invited her to come to Rome. She met with him at a tearful reunion and told him that the Jewish law states: "If you save one life, it is as if you have saved the world!"

The Pope had a Jewish classmate in school who later married a Polish Catholic woman. He remained Jewish but his children were all baptized Catholic . . . by Pope John Paul II who became his "Home Chaplain."

Nice home chaplain to have, if you can get him . . .

I think Ray S. and Mexican should be ousted from this Forum for their views on Pope John Paul the Great! Don't you!

Mexican, what are you going to do with that pinata?! Help! Help!

Alex

Dear Jakub,

"Dear Forum Friends?" Come on!

You and I BOTH want to have Ray S. and Mexican ejected from here for their views on Pope John Paul the Great.

I at least have the decency to admit my true feelings!

Er . . . yes, my dear forum brother . . .

Alex

Dear Dr. Eric,

While in Greece ("Holy Hellas"), our tour-guide, Eleutherios, told me emphatically that St Peter and the Apostles were all Greeks . . .

They were all good fishermen, for one thing . . .

I asked him if he could show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that they caught ONE fish all by themselves without any higher help . . .

It sounded "fishy" all around . . .

Alex