www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology De Montfort's Mary

This passage from DeMontfort really troubles me. It has taken me many years to get to the point where I am not afraid to come to God through Jesus. Now here, it seems to me, that Demontfort is saying that I need a mediator between Jesus and myself, namely Mary.

I have no problem with the Marian doctrines the church teaches. But it seems to me what DeMontfort is saying goes beyond orthodoxy and attributes to Mary what properly belongs only to Jesus Christ.

What becomes of the scripture, "There is one mediator between God and man the Man Jesus Christ."?

Can someone comment or clarify on DeMontforts statements?

Jason

I think that Montfort overstates his case. I fully expect to arouse the Mary addicts among us with that statement, but Montfortian spirituality doesn't appeal to me at all. I take nothing away from the Mother of God, I just don't like Montfort's approach.

Dear Jason,

Those are the sentiments of St. Louis de Montfort. They are not the official position of the Western Church. To the best of my knowledge, they are not the official position of the Eastern Church, either. So, you are free to accept or reject his sentiments. So, I wouldn't worry about it.

As for his views, I have read his "Secret of the Rosary" and I have skimmed his "True Devotion to Mary." I say "skimmed" because his sentiments and language are not mine. For the best of intentions, he seemed to go overboard in his praise of Mary -- instead of Mary's Son, Jesus Christ. He was not --and is not-- the only one who does so.

Nevertheless, St. Louis de Montfort made a good point. Entrusting ourselves to Jesus' mom is entrusting ourselves to the care of the best intercessor and guide to Jesus. After I figured that out, I consecrated myself to Mary: not to disrespect her Son, but to ask her to better guide me to Him. And, I might add, the Theotokos has watched over me in a special way ever since.

In closing, you wrote that you are no longer afraid of going to God through Jesus. Praise God ! I would suggest that you stick with that: the most holy and life-giving Gospel.

And as for the Theotokos, I would simply suggest that you disregard the hyperbole and stick with real devotion. In other words, I would simply suggest sticking with asking her to pray for you and to guide you ever more to her Son, Jesus Christ, and learning from her example. To do so, the East has its Akathist; the West has its Rosary; and either works just fine.

Hope this helped.

--John

byzanTN, I think your statement: " I fully expect to arouse the Mary addicts among us with that statement " is rather unkind...and the wording judgmental and uncharitable. If I had written that, I would expect to need to appologize to the Mother of God and to the Forum. When I read your words tonight, they made me very sad.

+Fr. Gregory

One can honor the Blessed MOther of God without having to buy into a particular devotional path like De MOntfort's. There are aspects of his works that would be alien to the Eastern Christian outlook on the Theotokos which are best expressed in the Troparia of the Great Feasts but those wonderful unknown (known to God) poets who composed our Liturgy!

Jason, First, the words of sacred Scripture need to be taken seriously, " All generations shall call me blessed ." By these words, we acknowledge the debt we owe to her for her ' fiat ' (her freely saying YES to God) at the Annunciation. Because of this co-operation with God in bringing the Lord into this world, the Virgin Mary participates in the salvation of the world and therefore instrumental in helping to bring about our redemption.

Next, I would suggest that you read and meditate upon the beginning of Our Blessed Lord's public ministry at Cana. There in a touching seen, Our Lady only had to say, "They have no wine" and then she just looked at Him---and He acted (if possible read it in the original Greek to get the real flavor of the passage). If Our Lord could overcome His own doubts at that moment about beginning His public ministry and ACT on behalf of that young nearly married couple at their wedding reception in a small matter, then how much more will He be willing to do for us at her request in more serious matters when we pray to her? This one great example of her intercession is all I need to remember if ever I were to doubt the need for her help and intercession! Pray and meditate on this Gospel and see how beautiful the relationship between Mother and Son and how precious must have been Mary's simple glance to bring about the miracle. My own dear mother had this same ability. If she wanted me to do something, she never needed to DO much, she only had to LOOK AT ME with that special glance and I did whatever she wanted without saying another word!

Your brother in the Lord,
+Fr. Gregory

Dear Fr.,

As I stated in my original post, I have no problem with the offician Marian doctrines of the church. Therefore I include devotions to Mary in my daily prayers. I recognize the value of our Lady's fiat and the importance of the scripture which states "All generations shall call me blessed."

But calling Mary blessed is a far cry from the exaltation De Montfort gives in his book. I am looking for someone who can explain to me *why* what he says about Mary is not usurping the role of Jesus himself as our *only mediatior between God and Man*.

Jason

My Dear Jason, Why was the intercession of Mary needed at Cana then? Why didn't Our Blessed Lord simply look up to Heaven and ask His Father's blessing (as He did before the miracle of the loaves and fishes) and then, glorifyng God perform the miracle? That's my principal point: that Mary's intercession was necessary at Cana to bring about the 'works of God'...and she still intercedes for us before her Son whenever we ask her. Mary is the mediatrix (according to the tradition of the Church for centuries) or all grace.

Rev. 22:17 - The Spirit and the Advocate
for the People of God Today

"The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come" (Rev. 22:17). These inspired words from the last sentences of Sacred Scripture should enkindle a hopeful confidence in the People of God concerning the ongoing salvific work of the Holy Spirit and Mary, his Immaculate Spouse, in their contemporary mission of advocacy for the Church today.

These quotes may also help:

It is noteworthy that the scriptural use of the term, advocate (Gk., parakletos, literally "called in to help" ), as used by Jesus at the Last Supper, refers to the coming aid of the Holy Spirit for the future Church (cf. Jn. 15:26). The later use of the same term for Mary's intercessory help to God for humanity as treated by the Church Fathers further bespeaks the intimate association of the Spirit and the Advocate in the mission of heavenly intercession as inferred by the Early Church Fathers. As Scheeben remarks, the title of Advocate:

"is used almost exclusively for Mary, and not for the saints. Because of its broad import and because it is a name of Sacred Scriptures proper to the Holy Spirit, it contains also a special consecration. In this respect it is particularly appropriate to Mary, the more so since, by reason of her special relationship to Him, the Holy Spirit unites Himself to Mary's petition with inutterable sighs."[297]

The intimate union of the Holy Spirit and Mary can be seen in terms of Mary's role as Advocate, interceding from humanity back to God, just as it was evidenced in Mary's role as Mediatrix, interceding from God to humanity. The contribution of St. Maximilian Kolbe provides a theological foundation for Mary's role as Advocate in interceding back to God on behalf of humanity in inseparable association with the Holy Spirit.

Mary as Mediatrix

In its treatment of Mary's Motherhood with regard to the Church the Catechism of the Catholic Church cites the text of Lumen Gentium 62 that "the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"[87] and then follows immediately with these further texts from Lumen Gentium by way of commentary:

Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men ... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it [Lumen Gentium 60]. No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source [Lumen Gentium 62].[88]

Although the conciliar text does not make any allusion to it, there is a striking corroboration of the analogy between the priesthood of Christ and his unique mediation and the various ways of sharing in this priestly mediation developed in Pope Leo XIII's Rosary Encyclical of 20 September 1896, Fidentem Piumque. Let us look at the argument which he develops with the help of St. Thomas Aquinas:

Undoubtedly the name and attributes of the absolute Mediator belong to no other than Christ; for being one Person and yet both Man and God He restored the human race to the favor of the Heavenly Father. "One Mediator of God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself a redemption for all" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

And yet, as the Angelic Doctor teaches: "There is no reason why certain others should not be called in a certain way mediators between God and man, that is to say in so far as they cooperate by predisposing and ministering in the union of man with God" (ST III, q. 26, a. 1). Such are the angels and saints, the prophets and priests of both Testaments, but especially has the Blessed Virgin a claim to the glory of this title. For no single individual can even be imagined who has ever contributed or ever will contribute so much toward reconciling man with God. To mankind heading for eternal ruin, she offered a Savior when she received the announcement of the mystery brought to this earth by the Angel, and in giving her consent gave it "in the name of the whole human race" (ST III, q. 30, a. 1). She is from whom Jesus is born; she is therefore truly His Mother and for this reason a worthy and acceptable "Mediatrix to the Mediator".



THE TITLE OF MEDIATRIX

Fr. Reginald Garrigou‑Lagrange, O.P. discusses the office of mediator:

"The office of mediator belongs fully only to Jesus, the Man‑God, Who alone could reconcile us with God by offering Him, on behalf of men, the infinite sacrifice of the Cross, which is perpetuated in Holy Mass. He alone, as Head of mankind, could merit for us in justice the grace of salvation and apply it to those who do not reject His saving action. It is as man that He is mediator, but as a Man in Whom humanity is united hypostatically to the Word and endowed with the fullness of grace, the grace of Headship, which overflows on men. As St. Paul puts it: 'For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave Himself for a redemption for all, a testimony in due times' (I Tim. ii, 56).
"But, St. Thomas adds: 'there is no reason why there should not be, after Christ, other secondary mediators between God and men, who co‑operate in uniting them in a ministerial and dispositive manner.� Such mediators dispose men for the action of the principal Mediator, or transmit it, but always in dependence on His merits.�

Fr. Garrigou‑Lagrange also notes that the liturgy, one of the voices of the ordinary magisterium, has not hesitated to maintain that Our Lady is universal mediatrix:

"The question arises, is Mary, in subordination to and in dependence on the merits of Christ, universal mediatrix for all men from the time of the coming of the Saviour, in regard to obtaining and distributing all graces, both in general and in particular? Does it not appear that she is? Nor is her role precisely that of a minister, but that of an associate in the redemptive work�.
"Though non‑Catholics answer the question with a denial, the Christian sense of the faithful, formed for years by the liturgy, which is one of the voices of the ordinary magisterium of the Church, has no hesitation in maintaining that, by the very fact of her being Mother of the Redeemer, all the indications are that Mary is universal mediatrix, for she finds herself placed between God and men, and more particularly between her Son and men.�

St. Maximilian Maria Kolbe, Franciscan martyr of Auschwitz, explains the mediatory role of Our Lady:

"There are two kinds of mediation. The first is that one receives something from another, but with some purpose in mind; then the one who has received the gift is not the owner, but must use the gift in such a way as has been told to him; meanwhile another received the same gift but for his exclusive property and has the right to administer it as he chooses.

"The Blessed Mother is in the second category, having received graces in that manner from the Godhead. She is not like a mailcarrier. She does not receive graces from God for an appointed purpose so that She might use them in one way or another. The Immaculate Virgin receives graces from God for Her own exclusive property and She dispenses them to us how She wills, to whom She wills, and inasmuch as She wills, for these are Her own. Here, finally, do we see how holy and great God made His Blessed Mother, and how much we should honor Her.�

I hope this helps.

Your brother in Christ,
+Fr. Gregory

No offense intended, and I should have read that a little more closely before posting it. That's what happens when I dash a post off hurriedly. But I don't apologize for not buying into de Montfort's Marian spirituality. I think it is extreme and a bit over the top. If you choose to believe it, you have a perfect right to do so. I also have a perfect right to not believe or practice it. If you derive spiritual benefit from it, that's great. However, it isn't for me, and I have too often seen it practiced to a degree where Christ - the reason for Marian devotion in the first place - gets totally forgotten.

I agree with you, Brian. Marian devotion is fine and commendable, and I am totally in favor of it, especially as it is practiced in Eastern Christianity. But I could see why Protestants could look at De Montfort's type of Marian devotion and accuse us of worshipping Mary. I don't think that's what he meant, but it can come across that way to someone who doesn't read it very carefully and who doesn't keep in mind what the author intended to convey.

byzanTN, I thought you must have written it quickly and probably didn't have time to review it before posting it. I do the same thing even MORE often than you...don't worry about it. You certainly do not have to 'buy into' the Marian spirituality of St. Louis...it isn't necessary and it's not meant for everyone anyway. It comes from the French school of Marian spirituality of that particular time...from whence came the Sulpician, Marist, Marianist, and a host of others. I guess some of us have natural tendency toward it, either in part or on the whole...because of our background and temperment. If my response was harsh, I ask forgiveness also...as I said, I often write a bit too quickly too.

Your brother in Christ,
+Fr. Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

No problem, and certainly no offense taken. I think our spiritualities are a bit different. The divine object of our spiritualities is the same, but our approach to it differs. My approach is definitely not a Western approach.

Charles

Jason, Put in a simpler way:

Christ is the source of redemption, and the fountain of Grace. Mary, on the other hand, is the channel through which Christ works: He passes through her womb in order to enter the world as a human being, the inauguration of His public ministry is brought about through her active intercession, and His suffering on the Cross is, in some mystical way, the suffering of this "woman" who labors to become the Mother of the Church.

We must never confuse Christ with Mary or Mary with Christ, or imagine that she acts independently of Him. He is the source of Grace, and with no source to draw from, Mary would have nothing to dispense.

We may draw an analogy to help us understand how their roles are both tightly interwoven yet completely separate: if I wish to consume a bottle of Pepsi right now, I may walk down the hall to the Pepsi vending machine and purchase a bottle. Is the vending machine the source of the Pepsi? Only in a secondary way. The true source of the Pepsi is the Pepsi plant where the beverage is made, bottled, and shipped out to the public. Yet, while the Pepsi plant is the source of the beverage which I am drinking, it was dispensed to me through the medium of the vending machine.

So it is with Christ and His Mother. He is the source of Grace, the very fountain from which it flows, and His Mother is the channel through which He chooses to dispense that Grace. All Grace comes from Christ, but all Grace comes through Mary.

Jacob Michael
(LumenGentleman Apologetics)

In her honor,
+Fr. Gregory

Glory to Jesus Christ!
If a friend or loved one were to ask my opinion on this "True" devotion I would in love advise them to avoid it at all costs. I know Mary as the "Highly Favored One" and "Full of Grace" But I do not see her the way Montfort does.

My apologies to all of those here who have this Montfortian way of Marian devotion, but I think that it is so far over the top as to be dangerous. In this I am sharing my opinion only, you all may as well continue as you see fit.

A quote from Louis:
"121. This devotion consists in giving oneself entirely to Mary in order to belong entirely to Jesus through her. It requires us to give:

Our body with its senses and members;

Our soul with its faculties;

Our present material possessions and all we shall acquire in the future;

Our interior and spiritual possessions, that is, our merits, virtues and good actions of the past, the present and the future.

In other words, we give her all that we possess both in our natural life and in our spiritual life as well as everything we shall acquire in the future in the order of nature, of grace, and of glory in heaven. This we do without any reservation, not even of a penny, a hair, or the smallest good deed. And we give for all eternity without claiming or expecting, in return for our offering and our service, any other reward than the honour of belonging to our Lord through Mary and in Mary, even though our Mother were not�as in fact she always is�the most generous and appreciative of all God's creatures."

I cannot explain it away as something "western" or "17th century" and therefore somehow harmless. In my way of thinking it is patently wrong.

Michael

Michael, I always figure this way: if the Holy Father has accepted the Marian spirituality of St. Louis de Montfort and he is one of the most brilliant theological minds of our time...then how can anyone call it "wrong"? It is certainly not for everyone...because by temperment and formation and need, we each have different approaches to 'life in union with Christ'---but I would never call an approach that has been approved of by the Church, wrong. It may not be for me...it may not be for you, but some will definitely find in it their best path to the Lord---and for them, it then becomes the best path.

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory