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Dear: Friends

I keep reading about the Orthodox View of "Pope as 1st Among Equals" i would like your thoughts on the matter from both Orthodox Christians, and Byzantine and Roman Catholic's. Thanks

From: Daniel Harrison
In the Holy Theotokos

Can you guys send me any links, spokin by any early church father supporting, the Orthodox View?THanks

From: Daniel
Through the Theotokos In Christ

Dear Daniel,

Well, there is the entire history of the Church in the first millennium to be read . . .

Meyendorff's Byzantine Theology and Peter and the Primacy etc. (I forget the exact title names) does an excellent job of presenting the Orthodox view, as does Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church."

Basically, it goes like this . . .

Bishops have authority of jurisdiction over their territories, Metropolitans and Patriarchs having each their own larger jurisdictions over other Bishops.

The Church based itself on the organization of the Roman Empire itself. "Bishop" or "Episcopus" is the old Roman name for "Mayor" and, like a mayor, his jurisdiction was over an urban unit. The same is true for "Metropolitan" etc.

Even the pectoral chain worn by bishops is modeled after the Roman mayoralty chains - with double loops to signify public responsibility.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council, I believe, established a primary of honour for the Bishop of Rome.

This was exercised at Councils and also with Rome as a "court of final appeal" during periods of crisis when other Churches felt they cannot deal with their own issues and need an outside "referee."

The First Vatican Council, in fact, ratified the tradition of the entire Church in this respect with regards to "primacy of honour" and then went beyond this to define primacy of jurisdiction - which also went beyond what Rome itself exercised following the Schism of 1054.

In fact, the Pope of Alexandria was the one to proclaim that his immediate jurisdiction extended throughout Christian Africa and was over every parish and priest in his Patriarchate.

Jurisdiction within one's patriarchal or episcopal domains is one thing.

To proclaim it over OTHER Churches is something that is really outside the traditional role of any bishop or patriarch of the first millennium AD.

That Rome exercises jurisdiction over its own domains is something no one questions or wishes to take away.

Rome has no business putting its nose into that of other Particular Churches, unless explicitly asked under specific circumstances.

Eastern Catholics also share this view with respect to their own patriarchates and particular Churches.

Alex

So, then, in your opinion Alex, what are some good books from the (Roman) Catholic POV?

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

You mean on the papacy itself?

For my money, John Hardon's Catechism does a superb job of bringing together much accurate information to present a traditional Catholic understanding of the Papacy.

Is there any other kind?

Alex

So, then,
if anyone says that
the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
not only in matters of
faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him be anathema.

This is from the First Vatican Council.

Orthodox Catholic the Pope has every right to put his nose into that of other Particular Churches. Rome exercises jurisdiction not only over its own domains but over the whole universal Church. All Catholics are subject to the Roman Pontiff. All Catholics must believe this.

God Bless,
Michael

It's a good thing that Vatican I was not an ecumenical council, according to Arch. Elias Zoghby (Melkite).

In Christ,

anastasios

In my eyes the Pope is the Bishop of Rome,Patriarch of the West,for the Roman Church.

Guess I've been reading too many Orthodox and Eastern Church books and articles.

In Christ,
James

Im Byzantine Catholic, so you know my views on the Papacy i believe he has jurisdiction over the entire church. My POV. THanks for the imput, much appreciated, keep on coming with your comments its intresting.

From: Daniel
In Christ

I do like Alex's excellent definition, but, at least in the East, Patriarchs do have to remain conciliar in most of their actions. In other words, within each particular autocephalous Church, the Patriarch has authority to ordain, administer, etc, only within his own diocese. However, the other junior bishops of that autocephalous Church are wise to consider his recommendations seriously.

On the non-conciliar side, the Patriarch is President of his Holy Synod and as President has the power to veto any election to the episcopate. He also has authority over "external"
relations with other autocephalous Churches and relations with the national government.

So the Eastern Patriarchs are each sort of "a first among equals" within each particular autochephalous Church.

In Christ,
Andrew.

Dear Michael,

I do not deny what Vatican I said.

There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that Rome always HAD the right to intervene, jurisdictionally, in the affairs of other Churches.

The crux of the matter is "under what circumstances."

Show me where in Vatican I, or in any other Roman Council, it is said that a Pope may run the internal affairs of an Eastern Patriarchate/Particular Church unilaterally.

And don't forget Vatican II!

Especially the Decree on the Eastern Churches.

Have you read that important Decree?

You do recognize Vatican II, don't you?

You are not a secevacantist or anything like that, right?

Many years to His Holiness Pope John Paul II

(And I can say that in Polish, the Pope's native tongue - can you? ).

Alex

Dear Reader Andrew,

Coming from you, that truly IS a great compliment!

Thank you.

Alex

Dear Orthodox Catholic,

No, of course I am NOT a sedevacantist. Sedevacantism IS heresy. Here is something from the Council of Vatican II(Orientalium Ecclesiarum)(no.9)

The patriarchs with their synods are the highest authority for all business of the patriarchate, including the right of establishing new eparchies and of nominating bishops of their rite within the territorial bounds of the patriarchate, without prejudice to the inalienable right of the Roman Pontiff to intervene in individual cases.

The Bishop of Rome can intervene in any case whatsoever. He has power over all the bishops. He can bind the bishops to anything. The Pope, if he wanted to could do away with the Byzantine Rite, the Roman Rite, or any rite and make the whole Church one rite. He could make the whole Church Chaldean Rite if he wanted to. As the Universal Bishop and Vicar of Christ he can stick his nose in other Churches business at any time. For he being the Universal Bishop the other Churches "business" is his "business."

Long live His Holiness John Paul II,
Michael

I like Mike, haha.

'Course none compare to Alex!

Logos Teen

Mike, I'm sorry but no Pope unilaterally has the authority to destroy Catholic tradition by dismantling Eucharistic rites of immemorial custom. He can, should, and will only intervene in grave matters of faith and morals as we have seen in the time since John XXIII of blessed memory. If some grave liturgical abuses were present that would be one thing. But he absolutely does not have the authority to just legislate at will but rather only in accord with the entire Church. This is what Vatican I intends and this is what every Catholic should believe.

The pontiff is a shepherd and not a dictator and presides in love as the "first among equals".

Perhaps you should read Lumen Gentium, Orientalium Dignitas, Orientale Lumen, and Ut Unum Sint. This Pope has been very conscious about using the Papacy to unite rather than use it as a monarchial office of power such as we saw in the reigh of Pio Nono (who said "nono" a lot, I understand)

The current Holy Father has also been vociferous about the need for particular Churches to return to their authentic tradition, which includes particular expressions of liturgical tradition, spirituality, and systems of governance.