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I read this morning that there are approximately 60,000 priests and 300 bishops who claim membership in the MMP (Marian Movement of Priests). Does anyone know of any Eastern Catholic priest or hierarch who is a member of this organization? Is this Movement known among the Eastern Catholic laity? I am excluding the Orthodox because one of the conditions for membership is a complete love for and obedience to the Bishop of Rome. Only blessings,
Silouan, unworthy monk

Slava Isusu Christu!

I believe that some of the Ukranian Catholics in Canada hold MMP Cenacles. Some Eastern Catholics, Rusyn and Ukranian, here in the US hold them as well, especially the well over latinized ones. My pastor at St. Nicholas of Myra Byzantine Catholic Church in Anchorage, Father Steve, suggested that Eastern Catholics stay away from such groups since in many cases these groups have led to grave scandal, contraversy, lies, and outright deception not to mention their dubious Orthodoxy and incompatibility with the Eastern Catholic Faith and praxis.

I guess in the last couple decades the MMP has had to crack down on several of their Cenacle groups that have had their own visionaries who have led Catholics into heresy and spiritual disorder. Father Steve counseled us that we should stay away from all of these so-called visionaries and movements since they all or most are thoroughly Latin and do not support our spirituality and theology and only keep our Byzantine Catholic people from appreciating their own rich Eastern traditions in that they are spending their time chasing after apparitions and practicing Latin devotions.

We, as Eastern Catholics, are called to fully be immersed in our traditions to preserve them and to recover our glorious patrimony and we are not going to think and act Eastern when we are caught up in Latin theologial forms and devotions, not to mention some spurious apparition or inner locution of a pseudo-mystic. As our spiritual Father, we were commanded, by Father Steve, to stay away from such groups and live our Eastern Catholic Faith in its fulness. Our tradition is so rich and would take our our life just to learn only part of it.

Let us spend time on our own traditions and stay away from wacky nutcases who need to be locked up in a mental institution rather than plague the Catholic faithful with their spiritual diseases. It is a great shame that many of these so-called recipients of these revelations use all the "trappings" of pre-Vatican II Latin spirituality and theology, but lead so many of the faithful away into their darkness and oftentimes heresy and schism. Let us pray for these people and let us pray that our Greek Catholic people with be shown the richness and beauty of their own traditions and stop running away after all this rot. The miracle of Jesus present in the Eucharist is the greatest miracle and the Mysteries of the Church, our glorious hymnody, our marvelous customs and magnificent spiritual life, the Holy Scriptures and the writings of the Fathers not to mention Hesycasm, the Jesus Prayer, and our beyond compare mystical traditions should occupy our Faithful until the end of their days with all of the fulness of the Holy Spirit.

The process of heeding the call of Rome to return to our Traditions will not be met by sustaining these groups in our Church. That does not deny that private revelations can occur, for certainly the Eastern tradion has a rich tradition of the supernal, BUT as Eastern Catholic we should be enriched by the pleroma and substance of our Tradition. The Latin Church is being plagued by charlatans and false visionaries and that is very sad. For me the rule is until Rome says ok I'd rather just stay away, it's simple but spiritually wise. I'd rather have the old dogs at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith have them until I even consider their having a valid Voice in the Church, but even so and again I reiterate my position is that Eastern Catholics at best must focus soley on their own patrimony staying clear of these Latin groups and at worse wait until Rome give a full approbation to these movements and visionaries before one associated with them.

In Christ,


Robert

George Harrison wrote and sang, "Beware of darkness... beware of maya (evil)'. We can comment on the danger of bogus apparitions (the most famous being Medjugorje), often allied with the charismatic movement (an import from Protestantism), well described by Robert, by taking George's lead and saying, "Beware of прелесть'.

Watch out now, take care, beware
the soft-shoe shufflers
dancing down the sidewalks
while each unconscious sufferer
wanders aimlessly.
Beware of maya.

http://oldworldrus.com

Robert,

You got it! In these West, these visions have Mary doing a lot of yacking. :p

Dear Friends,

I agree with your points on the apparitions etc.

Our way to God is primarily through liturgical prayer and our Eastern spirituality.

But I know priests who belong to this movement, who pray Akathists, Canons and, yes, the Rosary.

Certainly the Marian movement is something we don't need if we don't like it.

But I just wish that Eastern Catholics could have similar spiritual groups where we are encouraged in our spiritual lives and are afforded the help and support of others in so doing.

Perhaps it's me, but I don't see too many such groups in our Church, but lots in the Latin Church.

I belong to one where I practice Byzantine spirituality, tell them about and they are very accepting of it and of me "just as I am" no pun intended.

Alex

I agree with sticking to the Byzantine patrimony, but just like Adoremus does the Roman Church a service, based on what very little I know* the MMP doesn't "skeeve' me, as Italian-Americans here in the northeastern US would say. Perhaps they do Rome a good service too.

*The founder is an Italian, Fr Gobbi, who claims to have locutions from Our Lady — IOW he "hears voices' but not owing to schizophrenia. Может быть.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Orthodox Catholic:

The problem is not necessarily whether some priests et al are faithful to the Catholic Church or practice Eastern devotions or traditional Latin ones in the MMP. The problem is that our faithful, and I am speaking of our Greek Catholic people, are still so heavily Latinized that pastorally these groups are not appropriate in our Church or for our faithful to belong to. Father Gobbi's locutions are so heavily inundated with Latin theology that it is virtually impossible for Greek Catholics to belong to this group and remain Greek Catholic theologically or to sustain a Byzantine identity because subconsciously what a Byzantine thinks when one reads these locutions is that Latin theology is the superior form and the more perfect supernatural form, since the Mother of God is allegedly, through Father Gobbi's locutions, constantly using the all to familiar Latin terms and theological jargon.

All of us need a sense of the supernatural, we need to experience God and to have assurances of the existence of God through visions, revelations, et al, but the Eastern Church approaches these matters differently, as you know. The real truth is that if we do not discover the fulness of our rich Traditions our Churches will close and our people will go over to the Latin Church or Orthodoxy will get another influx of Greek Catholic converts; if we do not discover the supernatural power of the Jesus Prayer and the Grace that flows therefrom our people will naturally move toward the movers and shakers in the Latin world of visionaries and those here and there reporting to hear from Mary, Jesus, or some Saint or a bleeding Host or a cross imprinted on a taco.

The Jesus Prayer is an eternal resource for us to experience God, its power is awesome. The Eastern Church has a rich history of the supernatural, not only apparitions, but also visions etc. and the Divine Liturgy presents us mystically and actually into the very life of the glorious Trinity. The reality is that our Church is having to re-discover our Tradition since we had lost genuine Byzantine Monasticism and praxis or had it hybridized with Latin forms. It is in the true and authentic Byzantine Monastic tradition that our patrimony is preserved in its fullness, thank the Mother of God for Holy Resurrection Monastary, for our very survival and witness as an authentic Eastern Church is based on its survival and witness.

We are in a process of restoration, but we cannot do it from books alone we must have guidance and leadership from those who have preserved it, i.e. the Orthodox. Our next Metropolitan has the power to make or brake our Church now. We are in such a very sensitive state right now, that we could be broken very easily. Our greatest intercession must be for a Right Believing Archhierarch that is fully Eastern and fully ready to use a stern rod to reform this Metropolia toward the FULL restoration of all our Eastern patrimony. If we have a Latinized Metropolitan God help us and save us from schism.

Again, we must understand that it is natural as Byzantine Catholics to covet what our Latin brothers and sisters have in their Churches, or the money, the power and numbers, but I would not be so quick to covet so great a cross; for the Latin Church is undergoing a time of re-configuration and is undergoing the process of normalizing the situation after the Council. This is a very distressing time for Latin Catholics and for them these so-called apparitions and locutions are like a salve that helps to endure the constant abuses and scandals, but the only problem is that they will believe so easily and are yet again hurt. It is an endless process of pain. But for us we have such firmness and security, such reverence and holiness in our Liturgies and services and yet we are still coveting the Latins. Ignorance can no longer satisfy us.

We must strive to learn more and more about our Eastern Faith; we must be lights of the glory of our Traditions and compromise nothing. We cannot any longer be hybrid Eastern "Rite" Catholics we must recover our identity as Orthodox Christians who united with Rome to more fully express the prayer of Our Lord "that they all may be one..."

It is also interesting that many of these groups use Eastern Catholics to give themselves credibility. We are seen as the Orthodox of the Catholic Church, the Faithful, the Loyal. We are known to be absolutely Traditional by these groups and if they can get us they can get the respect of the Curia. Again we must strive and work hard to restore the integrity and wholeness of our Traditions, let us work toward that and help other to also discover them. Our greatest evagelization tool is to offer the world the fullness of what we are not a part or a hybrid. May SS Cyril and Methodius guide us into a glorious era of restoration for our Carpatho-Rusyn Catholic Church.

In Jesus Christ,


Robert

I wish I can remember the article's title or the publication, but a study was done on the patrons (or patronesses) chosen for a parish church in the American Ruthenian Catholic Metropolia under each Arcbishop. How does this relate to the thousands(?) of priests and bishops who look for some local piety? The study concludes that in the past, patrons like Nicholas of Myra and other "miracle-worker" saints were used the most. The emphasis was on the miraculous, something that connected with former generations. Lately, since the days of Kocisko, patron names like Athanasius and Basil were being chosen. They weren't miracle workers but were teachers and of a more philosophical background, something later generations could connect with. Let's face it: Marian devotions are not the recent generation's cup of tea. Nothing against our Theotokos. People are more educated (not saying this is good or bad) and want definitions and reasons for believing. A miraculously bleeding host or visions of talking mothers don't excite them and do not serve as criteria for an ascent to faith. Unfortunately, while the Ruthenian Catholic Church was chosing patron names that matched their needs, the church failed to match it with a better identity. We got caught up with liturgy and doing it pure and authentic. We missed the boat in conveying what made such Church teachers so important. We failed to fulfill the needs of an educated laity. Marian devotions have found their all-time low in today's contemporary church environment, except for a few Tridentine-minded transritualists who are still interested in Fatima secrets and private visions.

Dear Edwin,

Just a few reflections on your post.

Sts. Athanasius and Basil were indeed Thaumaturges or miracle-workers, even though they were not desert ascetics, but, as you rightly say, Teachers of the Church and, in the case of Basil, a Patriarch of Eastern Monasticism.

The Most Holy Theotokos has indeed a great tradition in the East, perhaps even greater than in the West with over one thousand miraculous Icons and their copies, the celebration of, yes, private apparitions (such as to St Seraphim of Sarov, for example) and a copious liturgical heritage in Her honour.

I think where we part company with the West is in the aspect of what we might perceive to be an excessive emphasis on private piety and revelations.

Our devotion is rooted in liturgical devotion.

As for the patrons, I think it is great that Church Teachers are being chosen.

However, any neglect of the Mother of God in any regard, and I am talking about the liturgical tradition, would be a neglect of the central truth of our faith pertaining to the Incarnation of God in Christ.

If we want to understand our faith, we must begin and continue it in the light of the Incarnation which is what Eastern devotion to the Mother of God is all about.

When undertook the Byzantine path in university, I came across those who SEEMED to suggest that devotion to the Theotokos was overdone in the West, decried the Rosary etc.

Yet, these fellows were not, in fact, being true to the Orthodox and Eastern tradition and had created a straw criticism. (I once showed one of them the evidence that St Seraphim of Sarov said the Rosary - he denied his eyes).

Our Akathist says of the Mother of God that we "worship the Creator through you."

We have different forms of veneration to be sure, but ours is a deep and strong one that takes second place to no one.

And, Robert, I am not promoting the Marian Movement in the least.

I would just like to see more Eastern Catholic groups that give practical advice and support to those of us who wish to delve more deeply into Eastern spirituality.

I've practiced the Jesus Prayer for years, read the Philokalia, but still can't help feeling that some hands on assistance from an Elder or Monk would be helpful.

Also, I find that some of our Eastern Catholic priests are so "Byzantinized" that they have our Orthodox friends wondering about them. What goes under the label of "Byzantine" can often be Russification (nothing wrong with that if that's what one wishes), Hellenization or another cultural variant.

Latinization affected Orthodoxy as much as it did Eastern Catholicism. This is another topic, but I found it rather amusing to have formerly cast off my Rosary devotion only to find an Orthodox saint who spent his life promoting it.

Just some reactions to the plethora of thoughts you have both blessed me with.

Alex

Alex wrote: "Sts. Athanasius and Basil were indeed Thaumaturges or miracle-workers, even though they were not desert ascetics, but, as you rightly say, Teachers of the Church and, in the case of Basil, a Patriarch of Eastern Monasticism."

Alex,

As I stated in my post, this observation came from the article I was reading, a study done on all the patrons/esses chosen (since the days of Takach).

Nicholas, BTW, was known as a miracle-worker, but also took part in the council condemning Arius (got reprimanded for boppin' Arius), therefore a 'teacher' but he got famous for other reasons.

Dear Edwin,

Agreed, agreed!

But the Eastern Church simply won't canonize anyone without miracles, and, in many cases, the phenomenon of incorruptibility of Relics.

For this reason, the Poles burned the bodies of the Orthodox Princes Constantine and Alexander Ostrozhsky in the Kyiv Caves Lavra, thinking that the Orthodox Church wouldn't canonize them if there wouldn't be any relics.

St Nicholas punched Arius in the face at that Council, but his two main claims to fame were miracles and charity.

Some icons of him underline these two special aspects of his holy character by portraying with him Sts. John the Merciful (charity) and Gregory the Thaumaturge (miracles).

I'm not lecturing here, I really like Hagiography and spend far too much time studying it, at least my wife thinks so.

God bless,

Alex

Alex wrote: "But the Eastern Church simply won't canonize anyone without miracles, and, in many cases, the phenomenon of incorruptibility of Relics."


Alex,

How about St. Stephen, the first deacon? Just wondering.

Anyway, I was just conveying a conclusion from the author of the study done on name of churches.

Good day.

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

Dear Edwin,

And I wasn't suggesting that you weren't or trying to attack you for anything!

I too was commenting on that subject as you related it.

Martyrs were glorified as saints for the miracle of their martyrdom i.e. dying for their faith, a principle that still holds to this day, as you know.

Good day to you too!

Alex

"I thought Mary is for old people!'
— Young Roman Catholic recruited by charismatic group, 1985, before the Catholic charismatics allied with conservatives and were turned on to the Rosary, etc.

That the Marian Movement of Priests exists plus interest in other phenomena, true or false, proves Marian devotion is most emphatically not dead!

There always will be such, even in corrupted form. Not to sound like a Modernist, but I agree with what C.S. Lewis called "good dreams' — the pagan mother goddesses served a similar function in those societies. It's a profound psychological need — come to Mama! Such perhaps prepared those people to be evangelized, since they already could relate to aspects of the Christian story (what Lewis meant).

except for a few Tridentine-minded transritualists who are still interested in Fatima secrets and private visions

It's true private visions aren't big in Orthodox piety, but wonderworking icons of Our Lady (and Our Lord and saints) sure are.

I hate the word "transritualist' — has the same putdown connotation as "Uniate' plus the stinging accusation of falsity of "transsexual' (someone who looks like one thing but is really another).

some of our Eastern Catholic priests are so "Byzantinized"

Good.

Such always have been marginalized in Catholic life, suspected of being un-Catholic. A kind of martyrdom.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Actually, in our Church, these "Byzantinized" priests are suspected of being "un-Ukrainian."

But their idea of what is "Byzantine" is somewhat artificial and Orthodox friends who see them and how they make the Sign of the Cross etc. often turn to me to say "What's that?"

One of these I know would definitely consider you to be a "Latinophrone" for having the Rosary on your site.

I don't like that kind of "Byzantinization."

Your kind of Orthodox, however, is something that is not only entirely acceptable to me, but to my entire community and I feel at home on your website.

(Heck, you even have monarchist articles there - what can be better?)

Alex