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Serge,

My term "transritualists" was not too nice, but it was only for those who come because we have a pretty Mass. They never internalize the Eastern spirit nor do they care to.

One woman told me that these folks remind her of those men who want to marry a woman only for their "good looks." Soon, there is a conflict of interest between what he wants and what she hopes for. There is a difference between men who learn how to love and those who are just plain "pigs."

There is a lot of disgust in our churches and maybe my posts reflect that. Given our history of being in communion with Rome, there has been those who come to our church:

... because of marriage (such as pre-Vatican II I-didn't-have-a-choice crowd, mostly women, who never felt at home or harbored ill-feelings of having to leave their churches behind - Wave One Transritualists),

... because of becoming disgruntled with the changes that happened after Vatican II (those who come to Eastern Churches to escape what they view as a secularization of worship - Wave Two Tranritualists),

... because of more disgruntled feelings about their own church (Wave Three or the next generation of Wave One), and

... because of a growing dislike of the Eastern Church from their disgruntled mothers (a group that has learned from early on that the Latin Church is an option for them if things don't go their way in their current church - Wave Four).

Add to this the poor, if not crisis-like, retention rate of highschoolers after graduation. If our church has a difficult time convincing its youth that this is where it is at then what will Marian devotions do for them?

There is, of course, the reality that many who come to the Eastern Church are sincerely IN LOVE and not just for the gingerbread.

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

This topic raises many good issues. I agree with Robert that Eastern Catholics must be very wary of the various movements in the West. In other postings, however, people have raised the fact that one of our greatest struggles is that we are of the Eastern Faith under a Western Pope. By what authority then do we accept or deny apparitions (?) demed authentic by the Vatican? Where do we go for our theological texts? Am I allowed as a Ruthenian Catholic to pick up a Russian Orthodox cathechism and teach my children since the ROC is part of "my" tradition and belief? By right (or Rite?), I should be able to in my opinion.

I too enjoy Hagiography. My patron as well as most of the Saints I study and venerate are Orthodox in the full sence of the word. St. Paisius Velichkovski, for instance, did not care for the "Uniates" at all. He converted several back to Orthodoxy in Moldavia, yet I am inspired by his faith and spirituality. My point is that
we indeed must guard against Western ideas of piety and devotion. As an "independant" Church, , we must be willing to make firm statements about other Catholic devotions to avoid confusion amoung our people. I feel this is one way we can gain greater recognition from our Latin brothers.

Dmitri

Edwin,

Your description of people in your Church whose hearts are somewhere else has merit. But especially for the kind of person escaping secularizing, Amchurching policies and practices, I prefer the unpejorative "refugee' to the demeaning "transritualist'. Treating liturgy like gingerbread is partly responsible for the problems in the Latin Church today — it's seen as only decoration; only the book-theology matters. Wrong. Un-holistic, un-Orthodox.

Am I allowed as a Ruthenian Catholic to pick up a Russian Orthodox cathechism and teach my children since the ROC is part of "my" tradition and belief?

Да. Here is a quotation from Fr Serge Keleher, a Russian Catholic priest: "It is true Eastern Orthodoxy is not merely a set of liturgical peculiarities but an ancient and large tradition. That ancient and large tradition is entirely Catholic: no authentic element of that tradition is unacceptable to the Catholic Church.'

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear friends,

Am I tiring of Serge's very unecumencial position that the Liturgy followed by 97% of the members of my church is "a sick joke" or other put downs. It sets up the Eastern Rite as something in competition with the Western rite, which it is not.

It is also obvious he is not really interested in ecumenism between Catholics and Orthodox but convincing Catholics they should become Orthodox.

I have reached the point where I believe the statements he makes have no place in an ecumencial forum.

Mrs. Olga Nimchek

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Olga Nimchek ]

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Olga Nimchek ]

Olga,

What are you talking about?

Serge is the most pro-Catholic Orthodox that I have ever met!

He's been to my church and worshipped with me in other fine Catholic churches in the DC area.

Serge attends Novus Ordo services, too, although his opinion is that they are lacking. I tend to agree! (and in what context did Serge say they were a "sick joke."??)

Olga, have you read the posts by Robert Sweiss? Do you remember Reader Timothy from way back who came here claiming we don't have grace?

Serge comes to the defense of Byzantine Catholics often, and suffers for it. Have you checked out your site where he is very pro-Catholic?

I think you are just oblivious to the facts. hate to say it, but you are basing your whole charicterature of Serge on his feelings for the Roman Mass, and omitting the rest of the story, which is in fact quite pro-Catholic!

Olga, when has Serge said OR EVEN HINTED that Catholics should become Orthodox? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVER!!!!!!!!!!! so saying he just wants us to be Orthodox is pure fantasy and a slur against him.. You have borne false witness, Olga, so repent of your sin!

I'd also like to know why you think 97% of "your Church" uses the Roman Mass. "Your Church" is the eparchy in which you are enrolled. That and that alone is "your church". You are in communion with other churches, Olga. But "Your Church" 100% uses the Byzantine Liturgy.

Even if you wanted to make the case that the Catholic communion 97% of the time uses the Roman Mass.. that is not true either, it is around 90%.

Please get the facts straight, and apologize to Serge, who contributes quite positively to this forum!

And even if we didn't like him, we wouldn't try and complain about him and get him evicted! Email him privately, for God's sake!

Good day!

anastasios
a supporter of Serge!

The opposite of love is not hate but indifference. So, gee, Olya, I didn't know you cared...

Thanks, Anastasios. On one of the Adoremus threads or "Rite or Wrong' I said comparing Byzantine Rite Communion under both kinds to the American Novus Ordo free-for-all with Hosts fingered like hors d'oeuvres and chalices grabbed from lay "ministers' for self-Communion is a sick joke. Nothing at all about the Roman Mass per se.

BTW, once Anastasios and I were walking through the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC and passed one of the many side chapels, where some African priests and people were reverently celebrating the Novus Ordo, complete with their own hymns. At the elevations of the Host and chalice at the consecration, I crossed myself and bowed, just like at my own church at the words of institution and epiklesis. I have a witness.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Olga,I believe you are very mistaken in your appraisal of Serge, who is a friend of mine also. Ditto to all that Anastasios has said. He (Serge) is certainly very welcome on this Forum, as far as I am concerned.

Vicki

I would like very much to be able to read the study about parish names from the time of Bishop Takach through Vladyka Kocisko and after. Edwin, is there a way that I could obtain this work? Thank you in advance. My keen interest in and deep love for the rich history of our Ruthenian Church will be enhanced by such a study.

I understand very well what you mean by "transritualists" and how they can come to our church for all of the wrong reasons. I have a memory from childhood that hits this matter right on the target:

In my home parish, we had a family of "traditional - Tridentine Roman Catholics" who had taken a liking to the Greek Catholic Divine Liturgy. Their piety was quite externalized and one could not miss them if they fell over them. The mother and female children all were self-required to wear chapel veils and skirts/dresses, while the father and male children were always in a very conservative suit, even for the 70s. Nothing wrong with suits and dresses, but lace chapel veils on obviously awkward feeling girls???

The parents made no qualms about voicing their disdain for the liturgical reforms of the Latin Rite. They even made the rounds from Greek Catholic church to church, trying to find the most perfect Divine Liturgy around for their tastes. In addition, they occasionally attended a church of the Society of St. Pius X.

I once was moved to ask the wife/mother why they were inspired to attend our church. The answer was a perfect definition of the "transritualist" phenomenon discussed here. The woman responded, "I love the "mass" in "Old Slavonic because it reminds me of the "Old Latin mass."

These people had not an ounce of Slavic heritage in them (I don't mean to imply that they would have had to). Our parish by that time offered the Divine Liturgy in both Church Slavonic and English, so their appreciation for the rituals of the Byzantine Rite were not the basis of her response. The only way that they could have this opinion is that in both liturgies, they could not understand what was being said. To me, that is absolutely the wrong reason to attend a Byzantine Church, even if the meaning of their sentiment was subconscious to them. Sad, really.

Joe

I truly believe that the Christian's obligation is primarily to save his/her soul and bring it to God. The Church exists to provide a sacramental community to support the individual "on pilgrimage".

The issue becomes one of where individuals choose to go to "Church". I can sympathize with the traditionalist-RCs who have fled to the East to find a comfortable place to work out their salvation. But I think that the ultimate question is: what is their idea of being "saved"? And also: what is the role of the 'church' in your spiritual pilgrimage? For some, they have made up their minds that this or that external form is a core element of salvation; and they live it out. Faithfully. But, lacking a clear guidance from a spiritual father/mother or even a concerned pastor, they may very well be living out a 'dream' of their own which they hope will lead to salvation. Their souls are probably in turmoil and in jeopardy. And, by not adjoining themselves to the church community, they exist as isolated islands surrounded by a host of striving Christians in their 'church'.

I strongly support the recommendation of the priest who advised his people to stay away from the MMP and other RC based 'spiritual' organizations. It is an absolute truism that if you are Byzantine, then you need to be nourished from that pool. If Roman, then seek your spiritual nourishment there. "Visiting" our brethren in other churches is a wonderful thing; like all other 'travel', it broadens the mind -- and the soul. But, it's always best to be at home.

Blessings!

Hi,

Serge, My sister made a large statue of Our Lady of Medjugorje. She goes out in my flower garden every year. I have no itention of giving her up.BTW the early messages were to have said to pray and fast or there would be war and by golly gosh Yugoslavia was torn apart by war.Though, most of you are right some of those folks are way off base(pray for them don't just bash'em) but I know people who are in Marian Movement,Medugorje the Scheonstatt movement(I have our Lady of Sheonstatt Pix too- not given it up either)etc. and they are truly good people. They live the gospel.Being a former RC I can tell you many of these movements start because of "the spirit of Vatican II". Many "liberal" Parishes supress devotion to the Blessed Mother. Many RC today couldn't say a Rosary to save their lives. Not all of us come to this Church for the reasons you site. For me, the Latin Mass does not compare. to The LOJC. Even if everthing went back to what it was I have no desire to go back. I wasn't happy with things in the RC Church (BTW I'm not that old I'm part of the guitar Mass generation).But when I started attending Liturgy, I fell in love with the Liturgy of St. John and the spirituality because it is balanced.It seems to have "built-ins" to keep you from going off balance. That's what the RC Church doesn't have. That's why the BC doesn't need these movements.When I go to Liturgy I leave any "latinisms" at home.When we don't have Holy Day Liturgies I go to the local OCA Church.BUT, I'm keeping my Statues & rosaries. I have an Icon Corner, to the left of the Large Icon of the Theotokos is a Statue of "St. Joseph the Provider".He is holding a jug & loaf of bread.I have rosaries hanging on my mirror with my prayer rope. Do I bring rosaries or want statues in my Byz Church? No. I think BC's should say the Akathist to the Theotokos as RC's say the rosary. As far as movements go what I would like to see is more Lay movements in the BC. I think they will help out with evangelization and our Church can grow. Said my peace. Good night.

Nicky's Baba

Serge, My sister made a large statue of Our Lady of Medjugorje. She goes out in my flower garden every year. I have no itention of giving her up.

Don't give her up! It's all in the intention, and yours is good. It's still Mary.

BTW the early messages were to have said to pray and fast or there would be war and by golly gosh Yugoslavia was torn apart by war.

The messages were written or rewritten by the theologically schooled Franciscan priests who man St James, the local Croatian church at Medjugorge, Bosnia, and so sound quite orthodox. I won't begrudge someone benefiting from the Rosary and bread-and-water fasting two or three days of the week (sounds a little like the Orthodox Wednesday and Friday fast).

the Schoenstatt movement(I have our Lady of Sheonstatt Pix too- not given it up either)

Sch�nstatt is approved by the Catholic Church.

Being a former RC I can tell you many of these movements start because of "the spirit of Vatican II".

Definitely. First, Our Lady may well speak and appear to warn about the bogus "renewal'. There could be several authentic apparitions on this topic few people even know about. (Why did obvious chicanery like Bayside succeed? The late Veronica Luken was saying things lots of heartbroken Roman Catholics wanted to hear.) Secondly, as has been written, many people need and want a salve after having their Mass and churches ripped apart and hearing heterodoxy taught in catechism classes.

Many "liberal" Parishes supress devotion to the Blessed Mother.

Yes, they're iconoclasts — a trait they picked up from Protestantism. Unlike them, I never could pit the "medievalisms' I love and they hate so much against "community'. The former is the culture and partly the expression of the latter.

Many RC today couldn't say a Rosary to save their lives.

But many can, despite everything.

Not all of us come to this Church for the reasons you cite.

Righto. And please, folks, stop dissing refugees by calling them transritualists.

For me, the Latin Mass does not compare.

It compares — I visit the Tridentine Mass at least once every year — but one can only live in one patrimony. Byzantium, Russian sector, is home now.

Even if everthing went back to what it was I have no desire to go back.

Me too: see above.

I wasn't happy with things in the RC Church (BTW I'm not that old; I'm part of the guitar Mass generation).

I'm 35 and 15 years ago destructive church-worker types used to boast to my face my generation and the next ones would know none of the old ways: I was simply odd man out ( "youre the exception' ). Well, their generation is going away now, and not leaving a whole lot of young followers, and people 10-15 years younger than me are now Generation Tradition as Robert put it. Glory to God.

But when I started attending Liturgy, I fell in love with the Liturgy of St. John and the spirituality because it is balanced.

Yes! Exactly.

It seems to have "built-ins" to keep you from going off balance.

Да.

That's what the RC Church doesn't have.

Not to diss the RCC but in practice it seems not. Which is why Amchurch is pretty much a plague in the RCC and not the BCCs.

That's why the BC doesn't need these movements.

I am inclined to agree. Even if the movements are above board and orthodox, perhaps like Latin theology of original sin (which produced the Immaculate Conception's theology) and Benediction, these things aren't needed in our tradition.

When I go to Liturgy I leave any "latinisms" at home.

Me too. Besides, the Russians and converts would freak if Latinisms showed up in my church.

When we don't have Holy Day Liturgies I go to the local OCA church.

Good for you!

BUT, I'm keeping my Statues & rosaries.

They're part of who you are — fine! You have discovered a balance of old and new patrimonies that works for you, and that's great. I have a rosary hanging by my bed and a little holy-water stoop. Even my nearly all-Byzantine icon corner (as seen on my site) has a medal of St Dymphna (a postschism Latin saint) sitting next to the censer.

Do I bring rosaries or want statues in my Byz Church? No. I think BC's should say the Akathist to the Theotokos as RC's say the rosary.

Точно — exactly.

As far as movements go what I would like to see is more Lay movements in the BC. I think they will help out with evangelization and our Church can grow. Said my piece.

I'm open to that.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Joe,

I will look for the article on the church name study and post the reference on this thread. Thanks for your interest in this.

Dear Serge,

I wasn't going to post anything today, but I simply had to write in support of our friend Serge!!

Call it "Sergianism" if you will . . .

What I personally admire about you most, Serge, is how you are a truly Renaissance Man, linking East and West within a balanced context of Orthodox Catholic faith and praxis.

The matter of the Novus Ordo is an important one, as Brendan knows by now, but everyone has their right to their view on it. I've heard traditional Catholics say much, much stronger things against it than our Serge ever did - or could, owing to the fact that he is the quintessential religious gentleman.

Do you see how much we love you here, Serge?

I don't think the Orthodox love you as much as we do!

Alex

Dear Dr. John,

Happy New Year!

Your points on East keeping itself East in terms of pools of devotion is well taken and I do not dispute that (for fear, above all, of incurring your excommunication!)

But I just wanted to reflect on how historically there have been cases of just such spiritual "cross-pollination."

Your Greek St Nicodemus the Hagiorite even translated into Greek the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius Loyola. He incurred the wrath of his colleagues once they found out who the author of that work was!

He also translated the "Unseen Warfare" from the Italian and this work was expanded by St Theophan the Recluse and is now quite the hot Eastern Christian spiritual item!

St Tikhon Zadonsky prayed using the Stations of the Cross, St Seraphim the meditated 15 decade Rosary and St Dmytry Rostovsky a number of other western devotions.

I think it is our right to borrow, if we so wish, from the best of other Particular Churches, and it is their right to borrow from ours.

His Holiness the Pope daily prays the Akathist before the Icon of Kazan and uses the Jesus Prayer.

We have an obligation to promote the Jesus Prayer world-wide to everyone, do we not, whether they are Byzantine, Roman or what-not.

God bless,

Alex

This priest are getting out of hand. Why doesn't the roman rite put a stop to such idoltrist practices. Mary is our mother not areGod!