www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Two Questions (Apparitions and States after death)

I have a couple of questions concerning the Eastern view of things which I hope somebody here can help me with. In the West there are many occurences in which a saint who is no longer among those living on the earth communicates with those who are, such as Marian apparitions and Joan of Arc. How do Eastern Catholics and Orthodox view such things? Are there examples of such events in historic Orthodoxy?

My second question concerns what happens after death. I have recently read an article or two which make passing reference to the state immediately after death as perceived in Eastern minds. From what I read it would seem that the Orthodox concept is that one can be saved after dying, or that in some way the ultimate state of a person is not absolutely determined at the time of death. I would very much like to know if this is true? What are the basic ideas of the state of a person after death but before the General Judgement? What exactly happens at the moment of death? What is the disposition of souls until the parousia?

Many thanks and God bless,

Patrick

In the West, Mary talks much in her apparitions. In the East, her icons weep.

Dear Patrick,

The East has many Saints who have had apparitions of the Mother of God and the Saints.

Seraphim of Sarov and Sergius of Radonezh are but two.

St Paissy Velichkovsky once had a vision of Christ during the Liturgy that lasted for five hours - he had to be pulled away from the altar with ropes.

But the Eastern monastic spirituality tends to discourage such things or at least make sure such personal religious experiences are examined by the Church to ensure the evil one hasn't had a hand in it.

Western devotional life, until recently, seemed to be heavily punctuated by paraliturgical devotions based on visions and apparitions.

The East has consistently affirmed the tried and true path of liturgical prayer to be followed by priests, monks and laity alike.

But, as Cantor Joseph said, the East has over 1,000 miraculous icons, all with their feast days and services, including a number of apparitions to individual Saints and special miracles.

The Eastern Church believes that a soul after its repose goes through a set of experiences over our 40 day period immediately following death. At the end of this period, a soul is assigned to a "forecourt" of either heaven or hell until the Second Coming of Christ when the body will be reunited with the soul and the last judgement will take place.

Alex

Alex,

The great spiritual teachers of the West also discouraged putting too much stock into visions & apparitions - first, they'r more "dessert" than "good nutrition" and second, Satan is as elegant a chef as the Good Lord - but his dainties can be toxic if consumed by the unwary.

In both East and West, any visions, apparitions, locutions, whatever, should be placed in the hands of one's Spiritual Father (Mother?) for discernment prior to ANY action - and ohhhhh that dirty little word...... OBEDIENCE to his (her) judgement is critical.

Popular piety doesn't always have a lot to do with the spiritual life.....

Cheers from the ol' trenches,

Sharon

Dear Mother Sharon,

Baruch haShem Adonai!

I agree totally and the fact is that the monastics who fasted and prayed a lot were tempted by such visions.

St Teresa the Great would often forbid one of her nuns who got such visions to pray for a couple of days until they wore off . . .

And I think the East has always been very strong on avoiding the use of the imagination in prayer to avoid any sort of FITful Visionary EXperiences and OTHEr unBalancing of one's INner FOcUs.

One just has to keep cool, that's all. Whew . . .

Alex

Alex and all,

Many thanks, and very fascinating. So, I assume that this means that while caution should prevail, which I can only respect and wish there were more of in the Western tradition to be perfectly frank, it would seem that such communications are not condemned in an outright manner? Those visions et cetera may or may not be valid, but there would seem to be no proscription against them? Am I right?

And very interesting about the forty days. Is there a reason for such a specific number? And, was I wrong in understanding that a person can be "saved" in the life to come? The most standard understanding, in the Roman Catholic sense, is that one must be "saved" in this life. At death if one is in the grace of God they will be bound for heaven, and this cannot change. The converse is of course also true. Is this different than the East views it? What, basically, is required at death for a salvation as far as the Orthodox faith would see it?

Many thanks again for the help. So much about the Eastern ideas appeal to me, and yet so much is like listening to a radio station about twenty miles outside of its range. We seem to use the same words but I doubt that they mean the same things. Such silly clarifications help me immensely, I promise.

God bless,

Patrick

Dear Patrick,

Such visions are not condemned in the East and sometimes they even become part of the liturgical tradition!

The forty days thing is a case in point. It comes from the visions of St Macarius of Egypt.

He saw a soul that reposed being shown heaven for three days and the funeral service is held in the Eastern Church on the third day - usually.

He then saw it being shown the way the righteous live until the ninth day - and again a Liturgy served on the ninth day after the repose.

And then he saw the soul being shown the terrors of hell until the 40th day when it is assigned a place by God and this entails a Liturgy on the 40th day.

The Eastern Church commemorates the soul of a reposed Christian in the Divine Liturgy with a "particle" for Communion for each of the 40 days, but with special liturgies on the days I've indicated.

As for being saved in the life to come, that is up to God.

St Peter of Kyiv in his catechism wrote that even if we see someone commit an atrocious sin before their death, we are to pray for that soul and ask God not to punish it for its sin etc.

God is the Lord over life and death and of everything.

Is there a limit to what He can do for us, especially when the Church prays for us, in life and death?

(Do you think I should have been a priest? )