www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Psssst! Have You Heard About The...Latinizations?

Dear Friends:

Sunday was a beautiful time for me. I was beginning my first Orthodox Lent as a Byzantine Catholic. I was spending some time with a fellow member when I heard her say "One way that the church will grow is if Father would pray the Rosary." I was in shock! I mean TOTAL SHOCK! I could not believe that I heard those words but I did. I began to explain to her "Orientale Lumen". Then I found out that she was RC and there are a few like that. My question is: Why not go to a RC parish? Where is the respect for the liturgical/devotional practices of that particular Rite? I am not saying that this person was being disrespectful but.....

I was shaken to the core because I love the Byzantine-Ruthenian Rite and if I wanted RC, I could have stayed where I was. I must admit that I am...sad. I was told that these things happen but I guess that I wasn't expecting it to happen so quickly in my sphere. I love you all and thank you for the wonderful answers.

Hold on to what God has blessed you to have. Live it, practice it and never take it for granted. Teach it to your children. Fight the good fight!

Ann

>>The criteria of whether a particular practice is authentically Byzantine must be that the practice has strong roots within and is faithful to the Byzantine Tradition, not whether the practice is popular.<<

>>A Particular Church, however, must be faithful to its Tradition and not imitate for the sake of popularity or acceptance.<<

Moose,
How do you explain the recent addition of the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe to the Byzantine-Ruthenian calendar? In my thread about OLG,you were supportive of the addition of this feast to the Byzantine calendar. Some would regard this as a "latinization". How do you differentiate between being oppposed to Fatima devotions in a parish, yet be in favor of promoting devotion to Guadalupe?

The feast of OLG is based on private revelations, yet the Metropolitan approved it as a feast fitting to be added onto the Byzantine calendar. Does not the inclusion of this feast open the door for other traditionally non-Eastern feasts to be included in the future? Does not the inclusion of the feast of OLG open the door for traditionally Mexican devotions to OLG(the rosary, las mananitas) to happen in the Ruthenian parishes of the Southwest, which many Mexicans are parishioners of?

Devotion to OLG has principally always been associated among Roman-rite Mexicans, yet because of the popularity of the feast and the impact OLG has had on the Americas, it is now celebrated from Alaska to Argentina.

How do you explain the Metropolitan's call for Eastern Catholics to be faithful to their traditions at that same time as he is adding this "western" feastday to the calendar?

>>Is not the Roman Rosary the fair equivalent of the Byzantine Akathist?<<

No, they are not the same type of prayer. The Rosary is a prayer of meditation on the lives of Jesus and Mary. The Akathist is a hymn of praise to the Theotokos.


God bless you.

Dear Lance,

Has Mary ever appeared in an apparition giving her approval to the Akathist? It would certainly be nice if we had our own apparition giving credence to our Byzantine practices.

Anthony

>>One could well ask, if Mary had appeared in Russia, Ukraine or Carpathia instead of Fatima, would she have asked people to pray the rosary or the akathist? If the Rosary, then does this mean she considers our Byzantine way of life unacceptable? Why or why not?<<

Moose,
There have been apparitions of the Theotokos to Byzantine Catholics, and these apparitions have been approved either from the Vatican itself or through local bishop's approval. Three of them are :

The apparitions of Litmanova, Slovakia which have received full Church approval. A link to information on these apparitions can be found at:
www.carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/ [carpatho-rusyn.org]

The apparitions of Hrushiv, Ukraine which have received local bishop's approval.

The apparitions of Damascus, Syria which have received both local Catholic and Orthodox approval.

In all three occasions, the visionaries have a devotion to the Rosary, and these visionaries report as seeing the Theotokos with a rosary in her hands.

Does this mean that Byzantine Marian devotions are not acceptable to the Theotokos? Of course not. The Theotokos is our Mother; She accepts any prayer that is said to her from her children.

Remember, Moose, there are many apparitions of the Theotokos to her children of the Eastern Orthodox churches in connection with an icon(i.e., Pocheav, Kazan, Iviron).

I sure you are aware of the 'Akathist' icon of the Theotokos and how the icon was miraculously saved by fire, due to the fact that an Akathist has been chanted before it. The Theotokos certainly heard those prayers to save the icon.



[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-07-2000).]

>>How do you explain the recent addition of the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe to the Byzantine-Ruthenian calendar?<<

As I stated before, there is no problem with veneration of approved apparitions East or West. The problem comes when Easterners adopt Western devotions, which leads to a Western theological approach. The Byzantine Church is simply recognizing an approved Marian Apparition that happened here in North America, a local thing. It is not adopting wholesale any or all of whatever particular Roman customs that go with it. In fact, the Monks of Holy Resurrection Monastery have composed new texts for Vespers and Matins. Byzantine devotion to Our Lady of Gudalupe will authentically Byzantine and not an imitation of what the Roman Catholics are doing. My objections to Fatima are not with the apparition itself, or even personal devotion to this apparition, but rather to those who insist that we must adopt Latin customs because of this apparition rather than developing or maintaining Marian devotion that is authentic to our Byzantine Tradition.


>>Does not the inclusion of the feast of OLG open the door for traditionally Mexican devotions to OLG (the rosary, las mananitas) to happen in the Ruthenian parishes of the Southwest, which many Mexicans are parishioners of? <<

All people - be they Hispanic, black, white or green - are welcome to join us and embrace our Byzantine Christian Life. The key is in embracing our Byzantine Christian Life, not in reshaping it into something more appealing to them by adding the rosary or other Latin devotions. Keep in mind there is a big difference between cultural, ethnic devotions and those proper to a specific Church. Keeping this case, I would see every benefit of composing a new Akathist or Moleben in addition to the specific liturgical texts. This is far different than imitating the Latins.


>>>Is not the Roman Rosary the fair equivalent of the Byzantine Akathist?<<<

>>No, they are not the same type of prayer. The Rosary is a prayer of meditation on the lives of Jesus and Mary. The Akathist is a hymn of praise to the Theotokos.<<

Exactly my point. We have a well-spring within our Byzantine Tradition from which to draw. Want a strict meditation on the lives of Jesus and Mary? Celebrate Vespers and Matins! Pray the liturgical hours! Is the Rosary superior to the liturgical prayer of Church? Or, if you want a private devotion, why not the Jesus Prayer? Does it not contain all? Why are only the Latin para-liturgical devotions acceptable and not our own valid liturgical prayers?


>>There have been apparitions of the Theotokos to Byzantine Catholics, and these apparitions have been approved either from the Vatican itself or through local bishop's approval.<<

I am quite aware of these apparitions, I think you missed the point. I will ask it again, why is Fatima so important that we should adopt the Western Rosary when Mary has appeared to Byzantines asking us to pray? Can you explain why we should ignore these Eastern apparitions of the Mother of God and concentrate only on Fatima? Guadalupe at least happened in our own back yard. I can't imagine why the ethnic Byzantines would not first embrace the apparitions in their spiritual homelands of Slovakia, Ukraine, Syria and the East, and concentrate on these messages with authentic Byzantine devotions instead of ignoring them to concentrate on the message at the possible Fatima apparition. Why is it that most American Byzantines know about Fatima and the rosary, but have never heard about apparitions to Eastern Christians?

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your posts, Byzantino. Byzantino is correct. Certain Fatima devotions are fully acceptable to our Orthodox tradition. Byzantine Catholics in Europe and the Americas began to practice devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima during the 1940's. Most did so in a Latin manner (statues, Dominican Rosary, etc.) A minority, a very small group of Byzantine Catholics, mostly former Russian Orthodox in the tradition of Vladimir Solovyov, responded in a distinctly Orthodox manner. 1)They wrote icons. One of the earliest was the Theotokos (Bogoroditza) of Fatima. This icon, in 1956, became the patronal icon of the Russian Catholic parish in San Francisco. Here is another icon of the Theotokos of Fatima http://praiseofglory.alabanza.com/poland.htm 2)They prayed the prayer rope to the Theotokos. This patristic form of prayer can be traced back to A. D. 700, close to the time of the composition of the Akathist. It is possible that the Domincan or Roman Rosary was inspired by the Orthodox prayer rope ! A more recent exponent of this form of prayer was the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim of Sarov (1759-1833.) His Russian Orthodox disciples continue to practice this devotion in Russia. (Diaspora Ukrainian Byzantine Catholics pray this prayer rope, in Ukrainian of course.) These Russian Byzantine Catholics founded their own churches, chapels and shrines (e.g. San Francisco, U.S.A., Fatima, Portugal.) To date their practices remain little known. Such devotions to the Theotokos of Fatima were and are followed behind the Iron Curtain by Byzantine Catholics in Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, and Belarus. There is no attempt here to latinise the Byzantine Church. They are fully committed to Orthodoxy in communion with Rome.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 03-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 03-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 03-08-2000).]

Just curious...

I followed the Litmanova link referenced above. Interesting reading. Mention was made several times of a "Golden Our Father." An explanation was supposed to be somewhere on the site, but I didn't find it. Is anyone familiar with the "Golden Our Father?"


Thanks!

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Moose and Byzantino, could you please tell me how I could obtain more information about the aforementioned apparitions. I agree with you, Moose. These events ought to be better known. I suspect that they are not due to latinization. American Ruthenians have adopted the Roman mistrust and reserve regarding visions, apparitions and miraculous icons. What is your opinion of them. Do these apparitions seem to fit into the mystical traditions of the region ? I refer to Hrusheve, Litmanova and Seredne. Are there any icons of the Theotokos as she appeared in these places ? I have read "Witness: An Autobiography" by the Carpatho-Rusyn mystic and iconographer, Josyp Terelya. I have come to see the importance of visions, dreams and miraculous icons to Eastern European Christians. Are there English translations of the Akafists (Akathists) to the Pokrova and to the Weeping Mother of God of Mariapocs ? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 03-08-2000).]

In terms of the devotion to the Holy Virgin of Guadalupe, I feel that this fits in very well with our traditional Byzantine devotions. First of all, it is an icon. We Byzantines like them and we respond to them very well within the context of our traditional devotions.

Secondly, I think that the fact that the revelation of the image of the Mother of God came to a peasant man (not one of the 'biggies') and in our own geograpic area (the New World) makes the devotion somewhat more understandable. I must admit, however, that the devotion is more extant in the Southwest and in the Western states than in places where there are a lot of Spanish speaking people. You don't get much devotion to Guadalupe in Minnesota or New England.

So, if Byzantines in the Southwest deem devotion to the Guadalupe Virgin an acceptable practice, then GREAT! But one can't force it where it does not flourish on its own. The Virgin of Mariapocs is a wonderful devotion, but if it doesn't catch on outside the Ruthenian/Hungarian communities, then it's not a problem. I don't believe that the Holy Mother of God is going to be upset that devotion to her under a specific title is neglected. As long as we continue to remember to keep our devotion to her strong.

And for us Byzantines, we have our devotional 'titles' and 'images' contained in our traditional icons. Should a number of our communities add the American icon of Guadalupe, that's great. If it spreads, that's great. If it doesn't, that's OK too. We're not being orphaned just because we don't become devotees of a particular cultus of the Virgin.

incredible line! congratulations to all participating. as an older member of the greek catholic church in the usa, i would note that "latinization" was partly an attempt by greek catholics to "fit in" to the catholic culture of the us (since they were outsiders and from the less-favored eastern countries, while the dominant groups in the us were northern europeans) and to "differentiate" themselves from the orthodox. when i was in classes as a by in a latin church, i was told by the nuns that my grandmother's church was orthodox. then initially the eastern churches came under the jurisdiction of the latin bishops, some churches still do. the latin bishops were not noted for their tolerance of eastern customs. so, while eventually it becamse "traditional" to american greek catholics, and the pressure was from the laity, in the beginnings it was from their latin bishops and churches. today, my grandmother's church has rosary prayers before the Liturgy. there was complaint when the communion rail came down and the ikonostasis went up. there still is First Communion! but since these have been in place for almost a hundred years, they have become "traditional," and all that three or four generations have known. this restoration which is now proclaimed requires education and tolerance. it is no sin to accept customs from our sister churches, whether orthodox or latin catholic. much ado about nothing. i would rail against First Communion more than the rosary. Rosaries are universal, although the Rosary is not. a humble Greek Catholc in Minneapolis, from the cradle, although almost always these past 68 years in a latin milieu.

>I am quite aware of these apparitions, I think you missed the point. I will ask it again, why is Fatima so important that we should adopt the Western Rosary when Mary has appeared to Byzantines asking us to pray? Can you explain why we should ignore these Eastern apparitions of the Mother of God and concentrate only on Fatima? Guadalupe at least happened in our own back yard. I can't imagine why the ethnic Byzantines would not first embrace the apparitions in their spiritual homelands of Slovakia, Ukraine, Syria and the East, and concentrate on these messages with authentic Byzantine devotions instead of ignoring them to concentrate on the message at the possible Fatima apparition. Why is it that most American Byzantines know about Fatima and the rosary, but have never heard about apparitions to Eastern Christians?<

Moose,

The apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima occurred in the early 1900's, where as the apparitions of Litmanova, Hrushiv, and Damascus(Soufanieh) occurred within the past twenty years. Obviously, Eastern Catholics know more about Fatima because these apparitions are much older than the others, and therefore more exposure to the message. Given time, the apparions that have occurred to Eastern Catholics will become more well known. In fact, they already are, especially Soufanieh and Hrushiv.

You say you are aware of these apparitions, then you must also be aware that in all three apparitions, the Theotokos was seen with a rosary, and the visionaries involved also recite the rosary as well.

The reality is, Moose, is that the rosary is here to stay in the Eastern Catholic Churches. No amount of "delatinization" is going to remove the rosary from private devotions. I am just stating a fact. Obviously, Eastern Catholics(Byzantine and non-Byzantine) are finding a spiritual benefit in reciting the rosary. In all the Eastern Catholic parishes that I have visited(including my own parish) I have never failed to see a rosary.

You cannot deny the impact that the rosary has had on the devotional life of the Church, both West, and yes East. Even God Himself, through the Theotokos at Fatima, has decided the recitation of the rosary will have a significant role in obtaining world peace.

Why do you believe, Moose, that just because an Eastern Catholic has devotion to the Rosary that that implies a disregard for other devotions? That has not been my experience. My fellow Eastern Catholics pray the Akathist, the Moleben, the Liturgical Hours, and in addition the rosary. They find a benefit from it.

>>Why do you believe, Moose, that just because an Eastern Catholic has devotion to the Rosary that that implies a disregard for other devotions?<<

I have never stated objections to individual Easterners praying the rosary or any other Latin or Byzantine devotion. I personally pray the Jesus Prayer, which springs from the heart of our Byzantine Tradition. I do not understand why people would prefer the rosary to the Jesus Prayer, but I respect their choice.

What I object to is those who put private devotions on the same level as the Divine Services. The fact is that most Byzantine Catholic parishes do not celebrate all of our Divine Services (Vespers, Matins and the Hours, the Presanctified Liturgy) but many do have some set schedule for praying the rosary. With the exception of the Holy Week services, very few of our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters have the opportunity to participate in Vespers, Matins or the Hours. Fewer still have even heard of the Akathist. These are the official services of our Church, but were replaced by the Latin paraliturgical services in many of our parishes since our Church and Rome entered communion with one another in 1646. These services are not to be celebrated in addition to the rosary, but outrank it! Vespers and Matins are vital in educating and forming the people (something we desperately need!) and must come before any and all paraliturgical services, especially those coming from apparitions which we are free as Catholics to either embrace or reject.

Your parish is indeed both wondrous and unusual in that it celebrates all the Divine Services plus as many Akathists and Molebens as rosaries.

>What I object to is those who put private devotions on the same level as the Divine Services. The fact is that most Byzantine Catholic parishes do not celebrate all of our Divine Services (Vespers, Matins and the Hours, the Presanctified Liturgy) but many do have some set schedule for praying the rosary. With the exception of the Holy Week services, very few of our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters have the opportunity to participate in Vespers, Matins or the Hours. Fewer still have even heard of the Akathist. These are the official services of our Church, but were replaced by the Latin paraliturgical services in many of our parishes since our Church and Rome entered communion with one another in 1646. These services are not to be celebrated in addition to the rosary, but outrank it! Vespers and Matins are vital in educating and forming the people (something we desperately need!) and must come before any and all paraliturgical services, especially those coming from apparitions which we are free as Catholics to either embrace or reject.<

You are very much correct and I agree with you absolutely. The rosary is a private devotion, and it should never be used as a substitute for the official services of the Church.
You are right- more Byzantine Catholics should have the opportunity to experience the Liturgy of the Hours in their parishes, as well as more frequent celebration of the Presanctified Liturgy and other Divine Services. Unfortunately, some parishes don't have more frequent celebration of official divine services for several reasons, such as lack of interest or turnout among parishioners, or the distance involved for parishioners who don't live close to their parishes. That is the case with some parishes I've visited, but that is changing.

I know a Ukrainian Catholic priest who became pastor of a Ukrainian parish a few years ago , and he began the task of de-latinizing the church(with wonderful results) and re-establishing the divine services that had not been done there for years ,such as the Presanctified liturgy(which has become a "big hit" with the parishioners). At first there was a lot of struggle, but the priest took the time and patience in explaining to his parishioners why such changes were necessary. It is working out well.

From my experience, parishioners often recite the rosary before or after a Divine Liturgy is celebrated(especially in parishes that celebrate daily liturgy). This is often at the initiative of the people, as the priest prepares for the Liturgy. Some parishes do advertise in their bulletins that they do recite the rosary(i.e.,"rosary half hour before liturgy")


>>Your parish is indeed both wondrous and unusual in that it celebrates all the Divine Services plus as many Akathists and Molebens as rosaries.<<

Yes, my parish is indeed a gem. Every week this Great Lent, we have the Presanctified Liturgy and the Akathist to the Passion of the Lord, and will be having the Akathist to the Theotokos on Akathist Saturday. While there are parishioners who have devotion to the rosary and recite it privately and silently in the parish, there is no organized group recitation of it.


[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-09-2000).]

Byzantino:

1. I sincerely hope that people are not praying the rosary �privately� during the divine services. That is a 100% wrong practice for Byzantines. While that may have been the practice for Latin Catholics during the pre-Vatican II Mass, Byzantines are supposed to participate fully in the Divine Liturgy and are expressly told NOT to pray �private� prayers during the Liturgy. The Liturgy is the work of the people � we aren�t supposed to be off on our own, with our own private prayers, while the Liturgy is taking place. This is even the case after receiving communion. I trust that when you wrote that �there are parishioners who have devotion to the rosary and recite it privately and silently in the parish�, you were not referring to during the divine services. If you were, that is an unfortunate Latinization which should be stopped, in a pastoral way � it�s not really an individual matter for these parishioners, but rather a collective matter since the Liturgy requires the active, focused participation of all of the members of the Body of Christ.

2. People are free to do what they wish in terms of private devotions, but public devotional life is to be shifted toward the Byzantine devotions, according to the Vatican itself. The Liturgical Instruction specifically denounces �the acquisition of forms of thought, spirituality, and devotions that are not coherent with their own ecclesial heritage� and the tendency in the past for Eastern Catholics to �conform[ing] themselves instead, for the other [i.e., extra-liturgical] aspects of spirituality, to the Western sensibility considered as common to the Universal Church�. This is the direction that the Vatican itself is charting for the Eastern Catholic Churches. Of course, these changes are to undertaken in a pastoral manner � but that certainly does not include an ideology that seeks to universalize Western devotions such as the Rosary. That kind of ideology runs directly, 100% contrary to Vatican teaching on this point as quoted above.

3. While people are free to do what they wish in terms of private devotions, of course the Byzantine Churches would advise that they make every effort to live a devotional and spiritual life that flows from the same Byzantine tradition as the Divine Liturgy. Individual Byzantines would be better served learning and living these prayers (the Byzantine Morning and Evening Prayers, the Hours, canons and akathists, etc.), as they reflect the same spirituality and worldview as the Divine Liturgy itself does and can be integrated into a single, consistent, life of prayer where each piece fits with everything else. The Rosary, consisting as it does in a visual meditation of events in the earthly lives of Jesus and Mary, is a profoundly Western prayer: (1) Western spirituality is far, far more focused on the earthly lives of Jesus and Mary, on the humanity of Christ, etc., than is the East, and this is reflected in the Rosary � the East emphasizes the divine aspect of Christ, and this is reflected in our devotional life (e.g., the Akathist to Christ); (2) Western spirituality is far, far more focused on the events of the passion than is the East, and again this is reflected in the Rosary, the crucifix, etc.; and (3) Western spirituality, since at least the middle ages, has developed the form of prayer known as �meditation�, where specific events, scenes almost, are visually recalled and meditated upon � the Eastern Christian at prayer tries to pray imagelessly, or at least not meditatively in that pictorial sense � that is really a Western way of praying and not an Eastern way of praying � we pray with icons but we do not meditate on the icons in the way that the Rosary encourages one to meditate on the specific events commemorated. There is nothing �wrong� with the Rosary � but it represents a spirituality and a form of devotional life that is foreign to the Byzantine tradition and does not really fit very well into an integrated, Byzantine devotional life. Byzantines are of course free to pray the Rosary privately, but would be better off choosing devotions that are integrated with, and build upon, the Byzantine tradition so that the entire prayer life of a person � private and public � is �in sync� spiritually.

Obviously, based on your posts here, you wish to have a Byzantine liturgical life with Latin-style paraliturgical devotions such as Rosaries, Adoration, etc. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but you would do well to realize that this is not the direction that the Vatican is charting for the Eastern Catholic Churches and is therefore not, ultimately, the direction that the Eastern Catholic Churches will be taking in the medium-term.

In Christ,

Orientale

Orientale,

You have stated exactly what I have been trying to say, only you did it with much more clarity. Excellent!

Moose