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Peter,

Although you're newly registered here, I take it from your reference to having read the above in a previous version that I might know you from elsewhere, under another nick

I cannot think of 3 languages better suited than Italian, Greek, and Albanian in which to hurl imprecations and epithets down on someone's head. That surely would be the result were I to suggest that my Arberesh brethren's Church was not sui iuris. You'll be costing me my membership in the Society of Our Lady of Grace should Archdeacon John read that.

No, the Church is as much sui iuris as any of the Eparchial Churches (for that matter, as any of the Eastern or Oriental Churches). It just holds the unique, somewhat incongruous, and rarely recognized role of being a technically/theoretically (pick your choice) Church sui iuris within a Church sui iuris.

Many years,

Neil

Peter,

Actually, none are designated autocephalous - autonomous is the term applied to all.

Many years,

Neil

Deepest apologies for my confusion. I had never before that they were of the Latin patriarchate, and I guess that in trying to understand my brain took a wrong turn and concluded that what I had always heard (that they are a church sui iuris) wasn't technically true.

True enough; although I guess it's all relative: I've tended to think of "newly registered" as meaning "been here a month or two".

Yes, I don't remember the date of that other post, but it was in a thread with "Maronite" in the title.

No, this is pretty much only the nickname I've used, although my profile didn't say "New England" until a couple months ago.

Peter,

Excuse the "newly registered". I think I must have misread the date as 2006 .

You are correct, as to the title of the thread in which you read it earlier - spring of last year, as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil

Wow.This goes under my favorites to peruse more thoroughly. Neil, if you don't mind I'm going to send this to a Ruthenian librarian I know. I'm sure much of this will be new info even to him.
Great job,Neil.And the writing is so clear and easy to read.
Peace,
Cynthia

Cynthia,

Thanks for the kind words. Feel free to pass it along.

There's probably nothing at all really new there, altho there are bits and pieces of minutiae that aren't easily come by, I suppose. I think the appeal is in the compilation and organization, which has also always been the challenge and enjoyment of it (as well as why it changes each time that I do it).

Many years,

Neil

A Niall, a chara dhil,

Well, actually Arabic is an excellent, outstanding language "in which to hurl imprecations and epithets down on someone's head." Some examples come to mind, but they might not be entirely welcome on the forum!

Then of course there is always "bad cess to them" - in my experience of various forms of maledicta, that particular example is almost invariably used by people who have no idea what it actually means.

Cornish offers an intriguing example. One sentence of spoken Cornish survived, in one village, where this one sentence was used as a curse - children regularly got their faces slapped for uttering this dread set of words. 25 years or so ago, this came to the attention of Cornish specialists and advocates of the language revival, who went racing out to the village and shocked the locals by recording numerous examples of people of all ages speaking this dread imprecation into microphones for the benefit of Cornish posterity.

The specialists then rushed back to Penzance (where the pirates are no longer in residence) and turned over the recordings to the linguistic bigwigs for analysis. The dread curse turns out to mean "They left the gate open and my cow got out!" In all probability some farmer who was one of the last native speakers of Cornish had discovered the open gate, noticed the missing cow, and yelled this sentence in frustration and little pitchers with big ears heard it, decided it must be a curse, and began using it without knowing what it meant.

An tAth. Serge

Dear Neil,

Thank you for once again posting your extraordinarily lucid survey of the different Eastern Catholic Churches. It only gets better each time!

I had not realized that the Knanaya Christians in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church had a separate Usage (two Usages, actually), and I was also unaware of the three other Usages you mention within the Syro-Malabar Rescension of the East Syrian Tradition.

How would you describe the differences among the Assyro-Chaldean Usage, the Knanaite Usage, the Malabarese Usage, and the Chaldean-Malabarese Usage of the Syro-Malabarese Rescension? Does each (with the exception of the Knanaite Usage, perhaps) fall in a distinct location on a spectrum with complete Latinization at one pole and the original East Syrian Liturgy (as used by the Assyrian Church of the East, say) at the other end?

I have certainly seen at least three different English translations (some official, some used without approval from Rome) of the Syro-Malabar Qurbana; I had not considered (until now) that the several translations might be due, not primarily to different translators, but to translating from different versions of the original text.

Many thanks!


Peace,
Alex NvV

Alex,

Actually, other than the Knanaite, the distinction of "Usages" is not "official". Rather, it is my humble effort to put to paper (in some logical and non-polemical form) the various liturgical variations that are currently prevalent in the Syro-Malabar Church as a consequence of the internal brouhaha that exists in the Church as to the form the Holy Qurbana should take.

What I describe as the Assyro-Chaldean Usage would be the most ancient, that to which Rome seems to hope the Church will return (albeit, Rome itself effectively created the situation that resulted in it being initially abandoned and the choice probably least likely to be adopted).

Malabarese Usage is the term that I've applied to the heavily latinized Qurbana (it seemed less offensive than calling it the Latinized Usage :rolleyes: ).

Chaldean-Malabarese Usage is terminology that I, frankly, invented from whole cloth to describe an effort on the part of some hierarchs and clergy to serve the Holy Qurbana in a way that incorporates some of the more ancient praxis without totally abandoning all aspects of the latinized form - a hybrid if you will. (I seriously debated terming it "Mixed" or "Hybid" Usage; but, it sounded tacky to my ear.)

Don't ask what is involved in terms of the praxis aspects, because I don't know*. I've merely seen reference to the fact that it is being done. I also can't tell whether the motive is a real effort to effect compromise or simply a measure that is hoped will placate Rome and bring an end to its concern.

(It is certainly a struggle to keep in mind that "Indianized" - to those seeking to avoid the return to an Assyrian form - is equivalent to "Latinized" - in the minds of those who want to see that return happen.)

The Syro-Malabarese material is, most assuredly, the one place in which I have strayed from the paved path. In some respects, that doesn't surprise me b/c, truthfully, Indian Christianity is the most complex corner in regard to understanding Eastern/Oriental Catholicity and Orthodoxy. (To this day, after decades of immersion in the structure/organization of Eastern & Oriental Christianity, I still hesitate whenever I put pen to paper with regard to which Church in India is counterpart to which other.)

Many years,

Neil

*one thing - the orientation of the celebrant to the people and altar is involved; it differs among the three, that I do recollect.

In retrospect, I'll be adding a note to the document, detailing the distinction within the Syro-Malabar Church as to the Usages described.

I've already made corrections on my original of the titles that Father Serge noted and a comment acknowledging that "Rescension" is only technically/officially used with regard to the Ruthenians.

Many years,

Neil

Abouna,

Certainly, all the Celtic tongues offer the same beauty in (if one will forgive the attribution of same to) "the hurling of imprecations and epithets"). At least that would be the claim of a dear friend who just 2 nights ago was arguing to me the harshness of our ancestral tongues, while describing his efforts to master the Divine Liturgy in Irish from the text of the translation you gave him a few years back. Personally, I put his failure to fully (he would and did acknowledge the haunting beauty of Gaelic in song and chant) appreciate the language to his half-English parenthood - some things one can't escape .

Many years,

Neil

It is untrue. In Poland are 5000 Armenian Catholics, and one parish of the Catholics Bizantian -Slawish Rite (the same as in Russian or Polish Orthodox Church). For this communities is this Ordinariate. http://www.albert.krakow.pl/ormianie/ link to Polish Armenians page
www.kostomloty-parafia-unicka.siedlce.opoka.org.pl [kostomloty-parafia-unicka.siedlce.opoka.org.pl] the link to Kostomloty parish in polish
and in english http://www.kostomloty-parafia-unicka.siedlce.opoka.org.pl/parafia_e.htm

Ad western rites
very good Synopsis Ritum http://ffyl.uncu.edu.ar/departamentos/filosofia/centros/cefim/Synopsis%20Rituum%202004.pdf

Andrzej,

Thank you for that information. I'll correct the text relative to the Polish Ordinariate, which apparently has responsibility for this single "neo-Uniate" parish.

I am surprised as to the number of Armenian Catholics resident there and will revise my remarks as to the lack of any substantial Oriental Catholic presence in Poland. However, the Armenians in Poland are subject to the Armenian Ordinariate for Eastern Europe - not to the Polish Ordinariate.

Andrzej mentions Russians in conjunction with describing the "neo-Uniate" parish. Does anyone know whether the parish serves the Liturgy according to the Great or Little Russian Rescension?

Is there anyone who would like to offer a more particular definition as to "neo-Uniate"? Is the parish an effort to restore the historically lost Byzantine Polish or, are these displaced Ruthenian or Slovak Byzantines?

Many years,

Neil