www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Ukrainian rule of prayer?

Glory to God for all things!

Dear friends,

Thank you for your assistance.

Presviataya Bogoroditza Fatimskaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath martyrs and conferssors, pray for us.

Thank you very much, Alex and Diak, for the information. Now pulling together all of these books...I had a good laugh at the "This is the Byzantine way--get used to it!" I'm finding this out more and more. As I learn more and more, I find I have to refer to more and more books! Heck, even at Liturgy, I have to go between 2 or 3 books: for the readings, then the Tropars, etc. (if a feast day or proper), and then the "Divine Liturgy of +St. J.C." 'missal'. It makes it very difficult to bless yourself when your fingers are stuck in a book trying to hold your place! Lots of paper cuts to the forehead!

Thanks again you guys! Sorry I haven't written back for a bit. Vacation and new job have occupied my time. I also lost my place of where I posted these questions. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

Peace and prayers,

Rich

I actually carry a bookbag with me for cantoring, never with fewer than 5 or 6 different texts. Since we have English, Ukrainian and Slavonic all mixed at our Divine Liturgy, and considering I am very particular about texts and usage, that's a fact of life I am more than used to by now. I wasn't kidding or exaggerating when I made that statement about getting use to the Byzantine way...

Rich, that's what the analogion is for, to pile all of your books on it so you can bow and cross yourself now and then...it's really cool when you have the ones with the swivel top that you can swing around to a different book when you need it.

What do you mean? Mohyla died in 1647, the
schism in question began in 1654...

Sincerely,

subdeacon Peter

It has little to do with Ukraine as such. It
was general characteristics of all the Commonwealth of Both Nations (Polish Crown and
Great Principality of Lithuania united in one state).


Basilians of Suprasl Lavra printed many books for
Old Believers too.


The story is more complex: Old Believers' cross
must be not only three-bar, but also "vosmikoniechnyi" (a cross with 8 "ends").
Ukrainian three-bar crosses often have 7 "ends".



Very interesting. Could you tell more about it or/and provide a source?


So we have to regain that vision as soon as possible!

However, "Belarusyns" don't exist, but "BYELARUSY"
certainly do!

Sincerely,
subdeacon Peter

[ 06-28-2002: Message edited by: Piotr Siwicki ]

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Brother Subdeacon Piotr, you obviously have great command of the English language, and thus I would recommend Father Cyril Korolevsky's biography of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky which has been translated into English from French.

This book contains a good concise history of Russian Greek Catholic Father Eustachy Susalev and his ministry to the Old Ritualists (or Old Beleivers as some call them). I am hoping to write an article at some point which will perhaps grow into something larger specifically about the history of the Old Ritualist missions under Metropolitan Andrey and what became of them. I have a particular interest both liturgically and historically in the Old Believers and love and use some of their prayers and devotions in my family prayers. May God bless you in your ministerial journey.

Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

Hee hee hee!!! Subdeacon Randolph, If I had a swiveling analogion, I'd either break it, send books flying, or hurt myself (or others).

Now here's my next question, sort of on subject, but dealing with the liturgy itself. I was visiting my parents in VA, and attended the little Ukrainian Catholic Church there. They had a very basic Ukrainian Divine Liturgy Book, and also the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy book. They said the main prayers from the Ukrainian, the topars and other propers from the Ruthenian, and then prayed parts in Old Slavonic, also taken from the Ruthenian book. Is it permissable to do this? I read the Ukrainian tropars, etc. and compared them to the ones in the Ruthenian book, and while the translations are essentially the same, the wording, in some cases, is very different. Could you please help me out and explain this to me? Or is this a more "relaxed" Ukrainian parish/priest (it was very small, the nave of the church was about the size of a large living room!)

Thanks!

Rich

I recently attended Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Church in Palatine, IL for a liturgy service and was pleasantly surprised by the lack of singing the liturgy. Although I don't have much contact with Ukrainian Catholics, I was wondering if this is common in all Ukrainian churches or unique to Immaculate Conception Church? I usually attend the Russian Greek Catholic Church in Los Angeles whereby we sing the entire liturgy (98% in English and only 1% in Greek and 1% in Church Slavonic). Comments anyone???

David, in Palatine, both Deacon Andrew Plishka and his brother Mike Plishka are professional quality singers and the Liturgy there is usually beautiful. Fr. Michael Kuzma's wife Oksana is also a wonderful singer and often leads the responses during weekdays. You must have been there during an off-week.

Rich, that's the 10,000 hryvni question. It's mix and match time, baby! In some Ukrainian parishes, the only English translations for propers other than regular weekdays, the Eight Resurrectional Tones and panakhyda that anyone has access to are Ruthenian sources such as the Byzantine Seminary Press (Pittsburgh) translations or the Uniontown Basilian translations. In the UGCC there is no uniformity in usage of propers, with only some uniformity in the Eight Resurrectional Tones, weekday propers and Panakhyda. Even these have variations, for example the Eparchy of Parma has its own English Divine Liturgy book which has many propers translated in their own version. Also in Canada some parishes have their own English versions, such as St. Demetrius in Toronto and St. Elias in Brampton.

The bottom line is that there are some better English translations than the Ruthenian texts out there, you just have to look, find, and practice singing them and see what works. I have also used New Skete, Jordainville, Mother Mary/Kallistos Ware, Holy Transfiguration Monastery, St. John of Kronstadt Press, Melkite Menaion, Archbishop Raya, Isabel Hapgood and various OCA texts among others over the years in addition to the Ruthenian texts.

I have found in general the UGCC Synodal English translation of the Eight Tones and weekday propers that are in the little blue pew books sings much better in the Galician chant used in the Ukrainian Catholic parishes than the Ruthenian translations of the same, which are generally meant to be sung in Prostopinje, the Carpatho-Ruthenian chant style.

To avoid boring everyone to death here you can e-mail me privately and I can go into greater length and explanation about this topic and resources that might be of interest to you. I can babble incoherently like this about this stuff for days, just ask my wife

Dear Piotr,

Niech bedzie pochwalony Jezus Christus!

Some of the points you raised with respect to the Old Believers have already been answered so . . .

Mohyla did die before the schism broke out.

But the fact is that the two-fingered sign of the Cross was a phenomenon of the Russian Church and existed for a long time before.

The Ukrainian-Kyivan Church maintained the three-fingered "Greek" style of the Sign of the Cross as Orthodox using the invocation of the Holy Trinity rather than the Jesus Prayer.

However, the use of the Jesus Prayer with the Sign of the Cross, even with the three-fingered style, was also an old tradition and Mohyla simply united the two.

This is all written up in Met. Ilarion Ohienko's handy book "Khresne Znamennya" with many sources and footnotes.

I disagree with you on the issue of tolerance for sects in Ukraine.

There was always GREAT tolerance for such and even sects that were not tolerated in Poland or Lithuania escaped to Ukraine.

One case in point is the Hussites, persecuted in Poland, especially in Cracow. (The two marks on the face of the Madonna of Czestochowa are said to have been made by an iconoclastic Hussite).

St Theodore Ostrozhky who died as a monk in the Kyivan Caves Lavra came into close contact with Hussites in western Ukraine and adopted many of their military tactics, the tactics of Jan Zizka, in his battles with the Poles. The "arrow" formation of the cavalry that was used so successfully against the papal armies by the Hussites was adopted by him.

Even in the Kyivan Caves Lavra Patericon there is evidence, as Ohienko and Nazarko to name two have pointed out, that the Latins and some others were tolerated in Ukraine where they would not have been elsewhere.

And how was the Polish Crown tolerant of the Ukrainian Orthodox? And what about their treatment of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics when they and their bishops turned against them and considered them to be a means toward Latinization and Polonization?

You are kidding right? Otherwise, I just might be tempted to call you a polonized "Khruyn."

My uncles would be far less charitable with you, especially the two who suffered the Pacification!

Kidding, kidding, don't get all worked up . . .

Yes, the traditional three-bar Cross has 8 ends, as Ilarion Ohienko wrote about in his book, "Tryramenny Khrest zo Skisnym Pidnizhkom - natsionalny Khrest Ukrayiny." How do Ukie three-bar crosses have seven ends? Fascinating!

When everyone begins to refer to the capital of Ukraine as "Kyiv" and not "Kiev," and other aspects of its already achieved independence are likewise acknowledged, then and only THEN will I worry about proper national nomenclature of other nations like the White Russians .

Alex

Subdeacon Randolph, check your private messages.

Thanks!

Rich