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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Amen Paul, all the Churches should strive for that goal indeed. Amen! Amen! Amen! God Bless!

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!
"Umm, come visit my website sometime or somethin'!"

Paul, nor does the official Synodal 1988 Ukrainian Catholic English translation which was voted on and approved by the Ukrainian Catholic Synod. "Orthodox Christians" is our usage as well. We also have the option of using the Antiphons or the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes. And there are no abbreviations in the litanies, compressed antiphons, etc. But our experience was not without bumps in the road, to be sure.


[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

A week ago I was at the liturgy at the Russian Catholic church in SF. One noticable practice was their taking the epiclesis aloud (recited not chanted) with the congregation resonding with the (deacon's) Amens. This was the only part that was unfamiliar to me (a Ruthenian), although taking the litany of the catechumens is not among my memories (no one "departed" incidentally). I vaguely recall Bishop Tikhon (OCA) decrying this practice (on the Indiana List). What is the typical practice amondg the various Russian Orthodox. (Honestly just curious - and not fond of talking, versus chanting, in church.)

djs

It seems the proposed revisions and changes in the Liturgy are no longer secret. I (and 80 others!) have received a copy of the new Liturgy and music in the mail, asking for comments and "constructive" criticism. Unfortunately very little time is given to this exercise, as all comments have to be in by the 1st of August. I will try to write something, and thoughts and opinions already expressed (and those that might be expressed) in this thread will be helpful as I try to write appropriate comments. Thank you!

[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: Hieromonk Elias ]

If any of the faithful wanted to put in their comments directly who could we write to?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear djs,

The reciting of the Epiclesis out loud with the people responding with the Deacon's "Amens" is really an innovation that the Russian Orthodox Church would not look favourably upon.

Articles I've seen on Orthodox liturgical practice indicate that such is really usurping the role of Deacon by the laity and even that of the Priest (repeating the Words of Consecration etc.).

There are several things I've seen at Eastern Catholic parishes that we perhaps think of as being truly "Eastern" when it would be looked upon with horror by our Orthodox colleagues.

Alex

Alex,

Yet in this case the Eastern Catholics are correct and returning to a more ancient practice. It is the deacon who usurped the faithful's Amen when the Epiclesis started to be recited silently. (Although, who else was going to say it since the faithful were singing "We prasie You...") Amen is always the faithful's affirmation of the priest's prayers and it is theirs by right. While I don't think we should deliberately try to do something for the sake of being different from the Orthodox, true reform that returns proper focus and roles where they should be should not be held back because the Orthodox haven't undertaken the same.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance,

I agree, I was only giving what I've read from Orthodox sources.

And some of our parishes are more "Orthodox" than the Orthodox such as at Pentecost when our priests knelt at the Prayer "Heavenly King" and two Orthodox priests I saw were wondering what they were doing.

Since I have you here, may I ask you two questions related to liturgy?

1) When we wish to use the Typika Psalms instead of the Antiphons, can we do so daily? And why is the first Psalm shortened so drastically? Can it be legitimately?

2) One of our parishes has adopted the new liturgical proposals of the Finnish Orthodox Church under Archbishop Paul - returning the kiss of peace, procession with the Gospel around the entire Church etc. What do you think of this?

3) In areas that can have a Priest serve Divine LIturgy only once a month, does our Church make provision for the possibility of appointing someone to act as Reader to conduct Reader's services with Typika on other Sundays?

Oops, that's three questions. I guess the earlier "two" came from undue influence from our bishops . . .

God bless, Servant of Christ, God bless!

Alex

Dear Lance,

Just one more question that came to me when I read your post.

Is there a compilation of practices that the laity once observed in liturgical celebration that were eventually taken over by the clergy?

There is an argument that says that the two-fingered Sign of the Cross of the Old Believers was like that once - all laity performed it until the clerics adopted it for their own sacerdotal use alone.

Alex

Dear Nik,

Your website is wonderful . . .

And as for our similarities with Orthodox liturgical practice, to paraphrase a Pope, "Nik plus, nik minus, nik aliter!" (Nothing added, nothing subtracted, nothing changed).

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear djs,

The reciting of the Epiclesis out loud with the people responding with the Deacon's "Amens" is really an innovation that the Russian Orthodox Church would not look favourably upon.

Actually, this is practiced at the OCA parish I attend! It is really wonderful to hear the words of the Epiclesis! And as the "Amens" are given, everyone makes a low metany.


Peace,
Brian

Dear Brian,

I've nothing against it!

I'm just really trying to figure out how Orthodoxy understands some of the "new liturgical items" that have come up.

Alex

Alex,

1. I am unsure, the Typical Psalms seem reserved for Sundays for Divien Liturgy in every tradition I have seen. However, we do have the Typica which uses the "Typical" Pslams. As for abbreviating Psalms, Cathedral usage was always selective in its use of Psalms choosing those that went with the theme of the service and did not hesitate to edit Psalms or use only those verses they felt appropriate. This is why I do not object to the shortening of the Antiphons to a few verses. It is from the Monastice usage we get the idea we have to recite an entire Psalm or we are doing something wrong.

2. The reforms themselves are fine, but I don't think a parish should take it upon themselves to introduce reforms unless blessed by their bishop to do so.

3. Your Eparchy specifically, (and soon all Greek Catholic eparchies where the need exists) allows for a Deacon to conduct Typica with Holy Communion. It is also my belief every parish should have trained and ordained readers and subdeacons so that properly conducted reader's services could be conducted if the need arises. Also, there is no prohibition to any layperson leading a reader's service, but I hesitate to encourage this since without training some may simply do the services as if a priest and deacon are there and this needs to be avoided.

4. The Amens at the Epiclesis seem to be the only prayer taken from the people. Actually it was the deacons who had many parts taken from them by the priests, most notably the Proskomede! As for the Old Rite Sign of the Cross, as far as I can tell this was actually a corruption on the part of Old Riters who coopted the Christogram for their use. There is no evidence of laity anywhere else using the Christogram. Partiarch Nikon was actually trying to return them to the more ancient and proper use. Probably the best evidence that this was an Old Rite innovation is the fact that the Rusyns didn't do it. Invariably the Ruthenian Recension is more pristine and ancient than the Russian.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance,

Thank you for your comprehensive response!

(When are you going to be ordained, by the way?).

I once did a Reader's Service Typika for a vacationing group out in no-man's land and we partook of Holy Water, Blessed Bread and kissed the Cross.

I've been doing the Horologion in private ever since! My wife sometimes joins me, but she doesn't seem to like it when I ask her to light the candles et al. She asks me what I think she is - a Palamar?

There is some enthusiasm around for the Old Rite traditions, perhaps because it is something new or else hearkens back to the old, highly ritualized Slavonic way of life (entrance bows etc.).

I have adopted their Sign of the Cross for use when saying the Jesus Prayer and prostrations. It seems appropriate to me, but I wouldn't promote it publicly. I've also worked with the Bielaya Krinitsa group to produce a video on their history. They've canonized all their martyrs and I respect them deeply.

What about the singing of "Axios?" Did that not have something to do with the participation, at one time, of the Laity in the selection and approval of sacerdotal and episcopal candidates? But is now relegated to a formality?

It seems that in some Orthodox quarters there is a great sensitivity to laity "usurping" the role of the Priest.

Some even dislike the wrapping of prayer ropes around lay wrists as it is said only monastics are allowed to do that in public.

Much ado about nothing, I am sure . . .

God bless you, Servant of Christ!

Alex

Thanks Alex! I hate to go off-topic, but YourCatholic.com has been a labor of love of many years and I'm am pleased when someone find beauty or usefulness in it. As for the Liturgies, "Nothing added, nothing subtracted, nothing changed" should be the rule of thumb indeed!God Bless.

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!
"Umm, come visit my website sometime or somethin'!"