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Axios,

The problem with using the specific terms that you cite is that they are all over the map in terms of their agendas. If we were to use a generic term, I would use the term "dissenters" for that covers all these groups, and is in line with the original ideas that Alex presented based upon the writings of Malachi Martin.

Where we find problems, of course, is determining how this applies to the Eastern Catholic Chuches. I'm certain that some of the ideas presented by the dissenters would be quite welcome in our Eastern Churches (the idea of a married priesthood, for example) while others such as women priests would be rejected out-of-hand.

However, perhaps your idea has some merit -- rather than discuss such a broad spectrum of ideas and topics under a single umbrella term, it might be more productive to approach the various conceptes one at a time.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Obviously anything that effects the Roman rite in a major way, be it liturgical, doctrinal, or political, will end up, sooner or later, seeping into the Eastern rites. It has been stressed ofyten that the heritage of the East is also of the west. WEll it goes without saying that this shared heritage is also a two way street and the Latin rite legacy is also, in a sense, part of the Byzantine legacy as well. So when liberal liturgical reforms and all manner of atrocities start knawling away at our Roman rite brethren, as a Byzantine Catholic I would be concerned that my other lung is infected and rotting away. Since its kind of hard to breath with only one lung, I would dop everything possible to help the west restore its rapidly deteriorating traditions least what has effected them begins to start effecting us (Which is sadly starting to happen ina way).

Sure, many may say, "Its note your rite, so why care so much"? But we should remind them that the hratige of every rite is each other rites as well. After all, is it note our Latin rite brethren who are always reminding we Byzantines the hardest to remain faithful to our own traditions? Should not we then remind these very same people to preserve more faithfully the very traditions that are the fiber of their spirituality?

Even as a Byzantine Catholic (Which hopefully I shall soon be) I shall continue to moniter and show concern for events in the Roman rite and raise my voice with chiors of other concerned Catholics in protesting what I feel are innovations that, in dragging down the dignity of that rite, also degrade the traditions and character of the whole universal Church in general.

Is that note our duty as Catholics to as the Apostle exhots, "bear one anothers burdens"?

Robert K.

Dear Friends (and those who have written me in a less than friendly tone ),

First of all, Bisantino mentions that the Administrator "banned" discussion of this topic a while ago.

Forgive me, but when did the Administrator ban any responsible discourse here, including "AmChurch?"

The only thing the Administrator asked of us is to be specific and not insulting of the Latin Church.

There are those who feel, and I understand that, that "AmChurch" in and of itself is offensive.

When used to characterize the entire American Catholic Church - that is perjorative indeed and may God keep us from such condemnnations!

A term is only what the usage makes it out to be, but I understand that there are deeply felt issues about this.

Again, I think I also suggested that if anyone can come up with another term to characterize the reality we are discussing, I'm all for it!

But the thoughts and insights expressed here by so many has gone a long way toward satisfying my own understanding of this issue.

I've read and re-read the posts here and, apart from the fact that this term itself seems to raise a red flag, I think the discourse was carried out responsibly and insightfully.

I learned a great deal from everyone and thank you for everyone's erudition and courage in addressing this topic.

Alex

One suggested term was "dissenters", or "theological dissenters"?

Elias

Dear Robert K.,

The link you provide is an example of another version of "A....."

These traditionalist RC's find Byzantinization itself to be a move in the direction of the "Theological Dissenters."

Frankly, their understanding of Eastern theology, well, stinks.

But this does show that there can be a number of different views of what "theological dissenters" could be.

Alex

Dear Dr. John,

Well, it is always a pleasure to bask in the light of your wisdom, and not only because you said a nice thing about me!

Yes, I didn't realize that I hit on the truth - don't you just hate it when that happens!

But seriously, you've pinpointed exactly the dynamics that affect our Eastern Churches and how they tend to preserve us, as you said, on the basis of tradition that's been handed down.

(The hammer and nails thing is something my parents inculcated in me as well - I had no idea that was a part of the general tradition!).

Alex

Wow. Nor did I.

Now, do you guys pull earlobes on birthdays or name days?

Christ is Risen!

Dear Dr. John,

Yup, you betcha!

Also when the first vegetables of the season are brought in from the garden!

Where would we be without our Greek patrimony?

God bless,

Alex

Is it fair to say that AmChurch is the Frances Kissling-Cardinal Mahoney wing of the Catholic Church (as some here have suggested)?

Axios

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Frances Kissling. (And Mahony is the Archbishop of L.A. of the Latins, if I am not mistaken.)

[Sorry, but I just don't pay any attention to the RC stuff unless it's in the regular newspaper.]

Blessings!

Alex,

From my own experience I have never seen evidence of dissent in the Ruthenian Catholic Church. The problem lies with the Ultra-traditonalist Latins who lump us in with the dissenters because we call for the restoration of our married priesthood or the de-latinization of our Liturgy and Churches. Something they view as rebellious.

In Christ,
Lance

Now the question arises: how do we remain open and welcoming to all the true pilgrims who are searching and who find the Byzantine/Eastern pathway while at the same time guiding the ultra-traditionalist Romans back into their own birth-right community? I am in no wise suggesting that the traditionalist RCs should be 'shunned' (a la the Amish, we need to be welcoming and loving to ALL) BUT we also need to be sure that we are protecting our own community from well-intentioned but incorrect assaults on our patrimony.

Blessings!!! (PS: Thanks, Lance!! You are a gem!!)

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Dear Lance,

To echo Dr. John, you are a "Pearl of Great Price!"

When I first came across traditionalist RC's who hated our "Orthodoxisation" of our liturgy and traditions, it came as a real culture shock.

I thought that they would have liked the fact that we were returning to the Orthodox model, what with all the incense, icons and rituals they too love!

But they have, for the most part, a deeply rooted distrust for the Eastern "schismatics."

In the 17th century, I believe it was, the Eastern Catholic bishop of Mohiliv/Mogilev, Borecky (an ancestor of Bishop Isidore Borecky of Eastern Canada) who wrote to his Orthodox counterpart Saint George Konissky (glorified by the Belarussian Orthodox Church) that "in the heat of argument, the Roman Catholics call us (Eastern Catholics) schismatics, just as they do you."

I can think of worse things to be called . . .

Alex

As a traditionalist Latin Catholic (albeit deprived of the traditional Roman liturgy) I apologize on behalf of some of the ultra-traditionalists who view traditional Eastern Catholics as dissenters.

I like and respect the Eastern Catholic traditions because they developed organicly, like the Latin traditions. This should be the position of all Latin traditionalists, if they really respect tradition. The married priesthood is not the tradition of my Church, and I would like to keep it that way. But it is your tradition, and you should have it.

I am glad to have Eastern Catholics remaining faithful to their traditions.

In Jesu et Maria,
Justin