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I agree with byzanTN, the Latin/Roman Rite has a certain atitude, which I think is due to Sts. Peter & Paul being executed there.

Placing that aside, the Latin/Roman Church is indeed experiencing turblence, but what amazes me is the misinterpretation/translation of the original Latin documents which is mostly blamed today for what exists, and how nobody caught the mistakes ? Give me a break!

Vatican II was mainly called for the Latin/Roman Church, though I wish that the East would have been granted a bigger voice and participation, especially regarding the revision of the Liturgy.

I look to & trust my Eastern brethern alot more then the West, they are more rooted and steadfast.

james

I agree, the problem is far greater than the translations, it's the mindset that applied the translations. I also trust the East since it seems to value Tradition more highly. In the U.S., the RC Church after the Council was like Bede said of the English - they follow everything novel, and hold fast to nothing. I don't mean to slam the English, but the desire for novelty in the U.S. has caused many problems, and what Bede described in his own day is accurate in ours. I think the U.S. Church crossed the line from being in the world, to being too much of the world.

Things must be quite bad in the American Catholic Church although I think the problems happening there are symptomatic of the entire western world. Maybe I'm too Augustinian, and indeed as I sit here typing with him in my little avatar watching closely what I say I dare to compare myself to him as he wrote 'De Civitate Dei'. I think it was Mark Twain who said history doesnt cycle but 'it sure does rhyme' and I think that just as in St Augustine's day Western Society is on the verge of collapse.

The Second Vatican Council came at just the right time. Its obvious that the things that have been carried out in the name of the Council did not suddenly appear from oblivion. They couldnt have, they've taken too much of a hold too quickly. Our society has nurtured enlightenment ideology, neo-pagan ideology for centuries it was only a matter of time before we all became infected by it. Had Vatican II not happened the infection would've spread undetected until the body was eaten away. At least now we've discovered the cancer we can try and treat it.

When the Western Roman Empire collapsed the Western Patriarchy seemed to collapse with it and Western Christianity seemed to become Arianised, Pelagiasised and Paganised. But from the ashes of the Empire came a reinvigorated Roman Church, which baptised the Barbarians into the mystical body of Christ. I believe the New Evangelisation will go well, I believe such a thing will happen again.

Therefore I praise God for the troubles of the West and the Church in the West. Because it will be through these troubles that those truly faithful to Rome will be seperated from those who are not. Ultimately the secularisers will get tired of the Church and fall away into new ageism (I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen this trend) and then what will be left will be ready to mission to the heathen once more. For 40 years in the name of 'the spirit of Vatican II' people have been destroying the Church. However, at least here in England there are rumblings led by Dominicans like Aidan Nichols. Talk of 'radical Orthodoxy' and 'the autnetic spirit of Vatican II'.

As I sit here now I could lament in bitterness but I wont, instead I will praise the providence of God for letting me be born on the threshold of an age of saints. You may well have given up on the Roman Church but not I. I will see the day when the Roman rite is celebrated in due solemnity in all places in a way faithful to those who went before us, where tasteful art returns to our houses of worship, where obidience to the magisterium will be restored. I will see it because I will make it so, by God's grace.

All I ask is that you dont abandon us just yet. Distrust was one of the major reasons why the Church was torn asunder in the first instance. This time around dont repeat the mistakes of history. Keep us in your prayers and win for us the assistance of Our Lord in the grand enterprize that is about to begin.

Dear Myles,

What about the great Sarum tradition of England - and those others, Hereford, Bangor, York?

Have they generally fallen by the wayside?

Is there liturgical interest in them?

Alex

To my limited knolwedge the Sarum rite is preserved in a few places mainly by the religious orders particularly the Dominicans. However undoubtedly the most dominant rites are the Tridentine and the Pauline (the latter more than the former, which is again intricately tied to congregations i.e. the priestly fraternity of St Peter and the Oratory of St Philip Neri). Everybody's attention on both the pro-magisterial and anti-magisterial side of the divide is on the Pauline Mass. Some of us want to end the abuses, some of us not so much.
I think the preservation of the Old rites is a good thing but it can also be divisive. There are some for instance who will go to Tridentine Masses but refuse flat out to attend the Pauline Mass. This encourages division between Roman Catholics rather than diversity. There are various wings who believe they are 'more Catholic than the Pope' as the saying goes and so they dont bother with anyone else. These factions either focus on the Tridentine Mass or on promulgating liturgical abuses against the Pauline Mass. Leaving the greater number of believers to fend for themselves so to speak.

Lawrence,

You asked about my reaction were that same language to be applied to my Church and the other Churches of the East. Language is neutral, at least in the text you cited, with the exception of the single sentence that I cited as potentially objectionable. What is done using neutral language is to the credit or discredit of those who employ it.

I agree that abuses such as you cite have happened, but they didn't happen because of that text so much as how people interpreted the text.
In another time, another place, in the hands of different persons, it could have been the impetus for a great renewal of liturgical art in the Latin Church.

Many years,

Neil