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Brendan, Thanks for your input and clarification. Some of us really seem to be hung up on semantics here. Is it so out of the realm of peoples thinking that you can have an obligation to do something and still do it willingly and out of love? Are we not obligated to keep God's commandments and yet we keep them out of love for him? Are father's not obligated to support their children? Yet don't you support them out of love rather than obligation? This is my final comment on this semantic battle and nit picking. Instead of this ridiculous nit picking, people need to try to understand other peoples traditions, beliefs, etc. That doesn't mean you need to agree or take them on as your own. Just try to understand where the other person is coming from. Perception is Reality, folks! God Bless

I think I see a hint of the conundrum in answrs92's post:

We have been apart of this rite for only three months now and during that time have done a lot of searching and educated ourselves on the differences between the different rites. I thought both rites were a part of the Catholic Church. If that is true than perhaps a bit of love and understaning would go a long way. We are so fortunate to have found that in our new jurisdiction(thanks Bishop, I am learning)."

The clue is the persistent use of the word "rite". Byzantine Catholics (and our Eastern fellow-travellers) are not a rite; we have a rite, but we are a Church. The way that we think about ourselves and the way we live, including our 'obligations' is rather unique. While study and reading are wonderful adjuncts to becoming a member of the church, the critical and key factor is living it, while integrated into the community as fully as possible.

I'm glad that your bishop is happy with your progress. By the by, who is it?

Blessings!

>>>while integrated into the community as fully as possible<<<

Could you please clarify this statement for me? When you say "fully as POSSIBLE", are you saying that a former Latin Catholic can never be integrated fully? Will he/she always be look at differently?

Just wondering. Thats all.

Columcille

Hello-

You will find on this forum that there is a great emphasis on semantics and an almost hostility toward Latin/Roman Catholics who are trying to learn about a particular approach to something from the East, but because they dont already know the answer use a Latin/Roman/Western term to ask. I have been attending a Byzantine parish for almost 3 years now, have, for the most part stopped looking to this forum for info because I was afraid that my fellow parishioners were looking at my family with the same "suspicious" attitude that I found here.
Some of the folks here are very encouraging, but wading through all the other stuff is rough.

My advice is to learn about the Eastern Church from attending Divine Liturgy as often as you can. Do not miss any feast days if you can help it.

If you have a question and dont want to ask your priest, Anthony is wonderful on his EWTN QandA forum and he will give you a polite answer.

Thanks, Columcille and Mom Walsh. Any and all support and christian behavior is much appreciated. I am wondering if the judgemental people on this site have children and if they are as non- compassionate with them. We all have to learn somehow and just as children struggle to learn, those of us who appreciate the Byzantine Church and were not BORN into it, struggle to learn and understand ways that are new to us, but it sounds like, even if those of us who were reared in the RC rite and decided to change rites, which can be done, we still wouldn't be accepted by some. In retrospect, I guess our Catholic Church would be in sad shape if we all had to have been "born" into it.

Hmm, all this sort of reminds me of Scripture...Pharisee's, Scribes, Samaritan... Then there was the Book of Ruth, but I think she even got more compassion and support than what has been displayed here (with a few exceptions). It also seems very sad that this discussion is even taking place, especially on this Feast Day. I am sure we would all benefit from reading some of Paul's writings today and maybe we would learn better how to treat one another.

Above, I stated: "The way that we think about ourselves and the way we live, including our 'obligations' is rather unique. While study and reading are wonderful adjuncts to becoming a member of the church, the critical and key factor is living it, while integrated into the community as fully as possible."

Mom Walsh posts: "My advice is to learn about the Eastern Church from attending Divine Liturgy as often as you can. Do not miss any feast days if you can help it."

We're both saying the same thing: integration in the community means going to liturgy, making pierogi/cookies/poppystrudel/etc., working bingo, staffing the festival, and being everywhere when things are going on. People can't get to know you (and love you) if you're only there for church on Sunday morning and only hang around for a few minutes afterwards.

To Columkille's question: becoming a member of the Byzantine Church is like getting married. You get a whole new family in the blink of an eye. It's going to take time to get used to the situation, hear the family history, the family jokes, eat the family favorite foods, etc. Gradually, you'll be so integrated that they'll forget that you weren't born to them. I see coming to the Byzantine church in this way. It takes effort on both sides, but being there a lot really greases the skids.

By the way, answrs92, you never told us who your bishop is who is encouraging you.

Blessings!

Dr John, Well said. One of the reasons that we became members of the Church that we now belong to is because of the people. They are open and friendly and made us feel welcome and truely at home. We became involved from the beginning. Tomorrow we will be joining everyone to make peroiges and really look forward to that. It is a food that we have enjoyed for many years and now we can learn how to make them. The fellowship will be wonderful too.
As far as your question, what bishop is encouraging me, I am not sure what you mean by that. Therefore, I have not responded.

Dear folks,
All this discussion about the appropriateness of an "obligation" mindset for Byzantine Christians is all well and good, but are we not obligated to obey our bishops?

Are our Byzantine bishops in their power to say that such-and-such (attending Liturgy, following the fasting rules) is binding "under pain of sin" ? It seems to me that they are, because they most certainly HAVE said this. Thus, when we transgress these things out of apathy, laziness, or disobedience (which seems to be the "Byzantine" way that is glorified here), we have committed sin.

Whether or not that sin must be confessed I can't say, but outright disobedience to legitimate authority (our bishop, for God's sake!) seems to be a good thing to seek absolution for.

Leaving for the festal Liturgy in a few minutes...

[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 06-29-2001).]

Answrs92, I am very happy to learn that you and your family are very actively involved in the activities of the parish. It is the best way to become a fully integrated member of the community.

My question about the bishop was based upon your comment: thanks, Bishop, I am learning. I was wondering whom you were referring to.

Have fun with the pierogi making. If you do it right, you'll come home with flour in your hair, and on your clothes, and in your shoes, and........

Blessings!

Dr John, The thanks to the Bishop was in regard to a previous note where I was corrected when I wrote parish and told it is jurisdiction in the Byzantine Church. Happy Feast Day to All.

Dr. John,

I think he was talking to Basil thirumeni (bishop, in Malayalam), hence the thanks offered to him.

To SCOBA North American Orthodox, Saidna Basil's Cathedral is in Wichita and his website is www.antiochian.org. [antiochian.org.] Phoenix isn't in his Region. It is in Saidna Joseph's. Please pray that the Autonomy request to the Holy Synod in Damascus passes tremendously at the upcoming National Convention in LA. It will be a huge step forward for North American Orthodoxy (and my personal dream of a united and canonical Autocephalous, or at least Autonomous Church). If Constantinople needs the money, then the Mt. Sinai Autocephaly model may be the answer. Abba only knows the potential of a united and canonical North American Orthodox Church.

Respectfully,

Three Cents

Sorry, three cents, but the last post REALLY confused me.

Are you saying that answrs92 is a parishoner of Bishop Basil of the Antiochian Orthodox Church, whose cathedral is located in Wichita, Kansas? And that therefore there is a canonical parish in Scottsdale that is within this diocese?

But answrs92 talks about being in a Ruthenian parish. This seems to me to be under the omophor of the recently retired Bishop George.

So, I'm still confused, answrs92. Are you pursuing your spiritual pathway under the jurisdiction of the Van Nuys/Phoenix Byzantine Catholic Ruthenian diocese? Or are you pursuing your pathway under some other bishop?

Blessings!

Dr John, I am as confused as you over Three Cents post. It didn't seem to connect with any previous ones. You are correct in your observation, "Ruthenian and Retired Bishop George." I am not sure how I ended up in Witchita??? I think I have been there twice in my life though.
If everyone would just go back to the beginning of these posts they would see that at one point I was told that "Basil" was a Bishop. I apolologized for my seemingly disrespect, as I did not know that. Later I simply thanked him for educating me on semantics. RC's say parish and he gave me the counter-jurisdiction, which I inturn used.

Hi Dr. John:

The previous postings referred to Basil as Sayedna Basil and if you click his personal info it says "American Orthodox". There are numerous Orthodox "jurisdicions", but Saidna Basil of SCOBA is Bishop Basil (and no other SCOBA jurisdiction uses Arabic to address their Bishops). Also, when you click into the website of the "American Orthodox Diocese of Phoenix" you see an icon of Our Lord and Savior and an unfinished site. I was basically responding to Lance, whom I'm believe is a Melkite Greek Catholic diaconal candidate. If it is indeed Saidna Basil lurking, direct your Liturgical questions in his direction (The Liturgicon according to the usage of the Great Church was done in the 1980s when His Grace was still an Archimandrite). His Grace is one of the finest Byzantine liturgists in the world!

However, if this American Orthodox Church is really Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic, then all the questions are answered. But to SCOBA Orthodox (as opposed to "American"), there is only one Saidna Basil. And if he is indeed lurking in this Forum under some "interesting" Phoenix address, all are truly Blessed with His Grace's presence.

Yours in Christ,

Three Cents