The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Rocco, Hvizsgyak, P.W., Ramon, PeaceBeToAll
5,982 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (theophan), 185 guests, and 55 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,389
Posts416,720
Members5,982
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 11 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
[You cited an article on Purgatory which supposedly put forth the authoritative Catholic belief on Purgatory. Problem is: it didn't. It put forth one view. It is false to claim that Catholics are bound to hold to that interpretation of Purgatory. As djs has said: that is a "straw man."]

[All that Catholics are required to believe is that there is a purification after death for some. That's it. The other stuff is one theological view. The other stuff is not dogma.]


The Roman Catholic Encylopedia lists Purgatory as a Catholic Doctrine not a theological view -

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) IN ACCORDANCE WITH CATHOLIC TEACHING is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH CONCERNING PURGATORY IS CLEARLY EXPRESS IN THE DECREE OF UNION The faith of the Church drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) THAT THERE IS A PURGATORY, AND THAT THE SOULS THERIN ARE HELPED BY THE SUFFRAGES OF THE FAITHFUL, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

It does not list it as what we Orthodox Catholics call a theologumenia. It is not an opinion of the RCC, it is a doctrine. And as such, you are reguired to believe it based on both the Canons of your church and the fact that you are in communion with the RCC.

[A few weeks ago you came to this Forum with a "News" item about Fatima which was shown to be false. Did you apologize for introducing this here?]

I simply posted a news item from a Portuguese Newpaper. I made no comments on its validity. It was posted to generate discussion. And only time will tell if its true or not. It wouldn't be the first time the Vatican denied something that was later found to be true! Only time will tell.

OrthoMan


[The Church at Rome is alive and speaks in one doctrinal language. The Church at Jerusalem is also alive and speaks in a different doctrinal language. The Church at Antioch is also alive and speaks in yet another doctrinal language. When a man and woman become husband and wife they become one body. Yet they remain two individuals. They see though two different eyes, they process things with two different brains, they speak with two different voices. Likewise each local Church is a product of its own experience. Each contributes something slightly different but equally magnificant to the entire Church.]

The Protestant Churches could also make the same claim to try and justify that they are in fact one church rather than thousands of separate entities. They are one Protestant church that just speaks different doctrinal languages! Talk about strawmen!

OrthoMan

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
[You cited an article on Purgatory which supposedly put forth the authoritative Catholic belief on Purgatory. Problem is: it didn't. It put forth one view. It is false to claim that Catholics are bound to hold to that interpretation of Purgatory. As djs has said: that is a "straw man."]

[All that Catholics are required to believe is that there is a purification after death for some. That's it. The other stuff is one theological view. The other stuff is not dogma.]


The Roman Catholic Encylopedia lists Purgatory as a Catholic Doctrine not a theological view -

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) IN ACCORDANCE WITH CATHOLIC TEACHING is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH CONCERNING PURGATORY IS CLEARLY EXPRESS IN THE DECREE OF UNION The faith of the Church drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) THAT THERE IS A PURGATORY, AND THAT THE SOULS THERIN ARE HELPED BY THE SUFFRAGES OF THE FAITHFUL, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

It does not list it as what we Orthodox Catholics call a theologumenia. It is not an opinion of the RCC, it is a doctrine. And as such, you are reguired to believe it based on both the Canons of your church and the fact that you are in communion with the RCC.

[A few weeks ago you came to this Forum with a "News" item about Fatima which was shown to be false. Did you apologize for introducing this here?]

I simply posted a news item from a Portuguese Newpaper. I made no comments on its validity. It was posted to generate discussion. And only time will tell if its true or not. It wouldn't be the first time the Vatican denied something that was later found to be true! Only time will tell.

OrthoMan


[The Church at Rome is alive and speaks in one doctrinal language. The Church at Jerusalem is also alive and speaks in a different doctrinal language. The Church at Antioch is also alive and speaks in yet another doctrinal language. When a man and woman become husband and wife they become one body. Yet they remain two individuals. They see though two different eyes, they process things with two different brains, they speak with two different voices. Likewise each local Church is a product of its own experience. Each contributes something slightly different but equally magnificant to the entire Church.]

The Protestant Churches could also make the same claim to try and justify that they are in fact one church rather than thousands of separate entities. They are one Protestant church that just speaks different doctrinal languages! Talk about strawmen!

OrthoMan

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 15
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 15
Quote
Originally posted by DTBrown:
A few weeks ago you came to this Forum with a "News" item about Fatima which was shown to be false. Did you apologize for introducing this here?
David,

Bob was not the only one to introduce the Fatima "news" item, nor is there any reason to suggest that he did so maliciously. That item, as you can see by the postings in response to it, appeared in any number of publications, all of which drew the same erroneous conclusions based on it, since the material in it was "reported" as "fact". It took 2 weeks or so before the Vatican bothered to get a press release out correcting the misperceptions/misconstruals.

IMHO, you owe him an apology for what was, essentially, a cheap shot.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
[The fact that the term is "not always appreciated" doesn't seem to have stopped cwnews from using it.

Just a side observation.]

My point exactly!

OrthoMan

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Neil,

You're right. I do owe Bob an apology.

Bob,

I apologize for bringing up the Fatima thread. It was a cheap shot.

Quote
And only time will tell if its true or not. It wouldn't be the first time the Vatican denied something that was later found to be true! Only time will tell.
I think it's been pretty well discredited.

Quote
THAT THERE IS A PURGATORY, AND THAT THE SOULS THERIN ARE HELPED BY THE SUFFRAGES OF THE FAITHFUL,
So, Bob, Catholics believe there is a purification after death (we call it purgatory) and the souls undergoing that purification are helped by our prayers (which is what "suffrages" means). That's all that is required of Catholics to believe. So, you've proved my point.

Where is the proof that we are required to believe a Latin theological explanation of Purgatory?

Note to the Administrator: This thread has really gotten off-topic. But, please leave it open so that Bob can post the proof that we Byzantine Catholics must believe anything other than that there is a purification after death for some.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Neil,

You are farily new here, but Dave is not. He owes Bob no apology. Bob is quite well known here for making much of the worst of the Catholic Church and ignoring the same of the Orthodox Church. The Fatima article is a case in point. Only a few months ago Bob was greatly offended by the posting of an article that related how a Russian Orthodox priest in Russia performed a pseudo-marriage for a homosexual couple. He triumphantly pronounced the article a lie and product of a tabloid and evidence of how willing we are to slander the Orthodox Church. However, a few weeks later it turns out the article was indeed true, but Bob issued no apology or retraction. He then does the same thing he railed against, and posts an unsubstantiated article to show how bad the Catholic Church is. The only difference being the one about the priest was true, the Fatima article has been disproved. Fatima is doing exactly what Lourdes and Guadalupe has done, build a large modern Church (one can question the beauty of said building) to accomodate the large number of pilgrims.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
[Where is the proof that we are required to believe a Latin theological explanation of Purgatory? ]

Dave, what word in the first five words of the quote below do you not understand?

quote:

THAT THERE IS A PURGATORY, AND THAT THE SOULS THERIN ARE HELPED BY THE SUFFRAGES OF THE FAITHFUL,


OrthoMan

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
Quote
Originally posted by OrthoMan:

THAT THERE IS A PURGATORY, AND THAT THE SOULS THERIN ARE HELPED BY THE SUFFRAGES OF THE FAITHFUL,


Amen, Amen, Amen. smile

Anathema to all who believe otherwise. smile

I think part of the reason why the Catholic Church has always shied away from using the word "heretical" to describe the EO Churches--even though some and perhaps most of their faithful would deny things like Purgatory--is because those Orthodox who deny Purgatory are condemned by their own ancient lex orandi. OrthoMan, you guys pray for the dead all the time. If the dead are not helped by the suffrages of the faithful, why bother? The only possible conclusion, from the ancient lex orandi and orthopraxis of your Father Among the Saints John Chrysostom, is that THERE IS A PURGATORY AND THAT THE SOULS THERE ARE HELPED BY THE SUFFRAGES OF THE FAITHFUL.

In Christ,

LatinTrad

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
[To be 'in communion with Rome' means to accept their leader as the ultimate authority over the church on earth and accept the doctrines he proclaims, protects, and upholds. Doctrines like the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, Papal Surpemacy, etc. must be accepted by you by that very communion you proclaim.]

So, if I hear you right, you are saying that doctrines like the Immaculate Conception and Purgatory are so "off the chart bad" that the RC's cannot even describe themselves as small-o "orthodox"?

Why can't we just chalk these up to differences in theological approaches between East and West and agree that both are "right," based upon their particular traditions?

This would also suggest that you take the position that ecumenism is a romantic notion that will never come about until the Roman church gets rid of these teachings. Am I correct in this assumption?

Yours,

hal

P.S. IMHO, your approach has more proverbial "honey" and less "vinegar" these days. I, for one, appreciate this. Thanks! smile

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,727
Likes: 23
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,727
Likes: 23
Quote
Originally posted by LatinTrad:
Amen, Amen, Amen. smile

Anathema to all who believe otherwise. smile
Well, LT has just anathematized Pope John Paul II! Both he and Bob take the prize for conceit and rudeness. I ask both of them to at least learn something about Catholic theology. Disagreeing with something you don't understand helps no one.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Wait, wait, wait!!!

How/when/where/why did John Paul II deny Latin Trad's comment on Purgatory??? This is a doctrine of the Church! Perhaps, if this claim is substantiated, it might be time to employ St. Robert Bellarmine's tactics concerning heretical pontiffs? confused eek :rolleyes:

Logos Teen

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
Admin, with all due respect, please go and read my post again, and then come back and justify your comment that POPE JOHN PAUL II DOES NOT BELIEVE IN PURGATORY.'

That is an outrageous and outlandish claim.

I think you are being overly defensive here and you are not reading my posts in the spirit in which they are written.

LatinTrad

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 611
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 611
Admin,

The Catholic Church DOES teach Purgatory, in the Catechism:
Quote
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
I highly doubt PPJII does not believe something in the Catechism HE has propagated throughout the Catholic Church!

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
Thanks, Tammy.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
[Why can't we just chalk these up to differences in theological approaches between East and West and agree that both are "right," based upon their particular traditions?]

Because they are proclaimed doctines or dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church whose earthly authority you recognize and whose Bishop you also recognize as being the 'Supreme Pontiff', 'Universal Bishop', and earthly head of the church! Haven't you been reading the discussions? As doctrines or dogmas of said church they are required to be believed in order to be considered as part of that Church and to retain your communion with him and his church. That is the way the RCC is set up. It's what both myself and LatinTrad have been trying to get across to you.

Why don't we all become Protestants so we can truly believe whatever we want and list it as theological approaches? Either you believe what the ultimate Bishop whose authority you have placed yourself under proclaims, upholds, and protects or you don't. If you don't you then you severe your communion with him or are admitting that you are under the ultimate authority of a Bishop who expounds what you consider heterodox teachings!

[This would also suggest that you take the position that ecumenism is a romantic notion that will never come about until the Roman church gets rid of these teachings. Am I correct in this assumption?]

Not exactly! In order for a reunion to take place we have to go back to the time when our churches were still BASICALLY one and undivided and shared the same faith. And once again, as a reunited church, build from there.. I believe the Orthodox Catholic Church is already there since it has not added, subtracted, or changed any of those doctrines that were shared by both our churches. The Roman Catholic on the other hand has. So yes, in a way I do believe the RCC either has to get rid of these teaching so the can be discussed within the context of a truly Ecumenical Council and either be accepted or rejected BY THE ENTIRE REUNITED CATHOLIC CHURCH.

We Orthodox Catholics have nothing to negiotate because everything we believe was aso believed by the Roman Catholic Church before the schism. First issue to be resolved is Papal Supremacy. Once that issue is agreed upon what I have posted will take place.

OrthoMan

Page 7 of 11 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5