www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Icons & Iconography missing iconastasis

Christ is born!

while surfing the net i came across this site which has in its photo album the st. nicholas ukrainian catholic church in coldstream having without an iconastasis, only the icons of the pantokrator and theotokos?

http://www.geocities.com/vernonucchurch/pictures.html

Merry Christmas!
eumir

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Dear Eumir:

Many new churches that are still under construction don't have an iconostasis. St. Paul's Greek Orthodox Church in Irvine, California has been without an Iconostasis for a long time. To avoid getting the church into debt, often the parish will wait until they have all the funds. This could take years. Note that the early church didn't have the iconostasis. This is an historical development.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Hi Eumir,
I wasn't able to access the site, but I would guess that the parish building was one of the newer ones.

An iconostasis is not absolutely necessary, although in the Byzantine-Slav tradition it is preferable. The icon screen as we know it is a later development, and the very grand ones may only go back to the 14th century (I am not sure of the dates) or later.

If a congregation has only recently built the church building they may be waiting to erect the iconostasis when more money is available. Also some parishes may not want one.

Missions will start out in borrowed spaces and set up portable Icons of Our Lord and the Theotokos. They are the most important ones.

Merry Christmas!
Michael

Rather than postpone the icon-screen ad calendas Graecas, or "until we have all the money", it is quite possible to have a respectable temporary icon-screen, even using paper icons (there are suitable paper icons on the market). In that way, people become accustomed from the beginning to having an icon-screen and seeing the screen in use. Moreover, as has been remarked (not by me) on other threads, there are some "surplus" icon-screens around, sometimes because a parish has decided to erect a new icon-screen, and sometimes, alas, because a church or chapel has closed. Such a "surplus" icon-screen should be recycled. Incognitus

Christ is Born!

yes! i know that it is of later development having iconastasis in greek churches but i thought that upholding the greek tradition is the trend (as for the call of His all Ecumenical Pontiff). I remember just the last quarter of this year a latin rite catholic church in rome has to put up a temporary icon screen (deep red curtains with paper icons) to serve a certain orthodox community there (sorry i forgot what patriarchate) ill try to search for that again...

yep! in missions or chapels they use only icons without icon screens but a church that has been there for 10 years or so should have made a way, at least a curtain of some sort. Or is it because of latinization?

thanks for you answers... i am really learning alot! at least before i permanently settle in the west coast-bay area. i'll be aquainted with all this and not be shocked.

Glorify Him!
eumir

A parish can forgo the iconostasis out of poverty; these appear to be older parishes and from the looks of it the icons they do have are reproductions so this may be the case. It is also true that until fairly recently iconostases were rare in Byzantine Catholic churches. That these churches have been thus latinized is suggested by the photos of a first communion...

I am not exactly sure about this, but I did later get a look at that website. I fished around a little bit to try and figure out what they are trying to illustrate.

Three parishes are depicted and two of them are small. I have been thinking that the two older ones were closed when the third was opened (being rather new). None of them have an icon screen, I am willing to believe that this community is not planning to erect one.

It may be evidence of latinization but if that's how they like it, great. I remember when the Slovak bishop in Canada fell asleep in the Lord there were some pictures of the funeral. No Icon screen in the Cathedral, it was a very beautiful temple, the Divine Liturgy would be very magnificent in such a setting

Michael

Michael,


I had the same reaction to the site. The text speaks to 3 different buildings in which the parish has been situated (oddly, it appears to have been re-named with each relocation).

The only thing that stopped me from offering a comment on it (and kind of threw me) was that the first and second set of photos were also in color. Without going back and looking at it again, I can't say for certain - but, I think photos with such retained color would be inconsistent with the dates attributed to the original church building.

Maybe someone on the Forum is familiar with the parish and can offer some insight.

Many years,

Neil

From 1891 to 1929 (2 generations) several hundred thousand Ukrainians/Ruthenians settled in the Canadian Prairies. They colonized an area roughly stretching northwest from Winnipeg (Manitoba) through Saskatoon (Saskatchewan) to Edmonton (Alberta). There were hundred of churches built to serve the new immigrants.

All Orthodox and most Greek Catholic churches in this 'original settlement area' had an iconostas. These immigrants had a clear vision of the 'old country' churches in their minds and wanted the 'same' in the prairies. As with any church contruction, the iconostas may have been added at a later time, or if funds were lacking - never installed.

Over time some of the progeny of the colonists (and/or some of the original immigrants) migrated to British Columbia from the Prairies, many to work in the mines, forest industry, or just to retire in a warmer climate (the Canadian Prairie winters are very harsh).

There are several reasons why the British Columbia Ukrainian communities often did not have an iconostas;

(1) The communities were not as dense therefore there was less money available for such things as an iconostas. The parishoners were not wealthy. Many were retired or semi-retired farmers who had fixed savings to live from. There were few well paying factory jobs and most people who worked were employed in the forestry, fisheries, and pulp and paper industries.

(2) Also, because the churches were much smaller, adding an iconostas may have been unpractical (reduces pew space). These churches were often more like small chapels.

(3) The parishoners were often one or two generations separated from the 'old country' (Ukraine) and were not familiar for one reason or another with the iconostas tradition.

(5) Latinization may also be a reason but I don't think it is the main reason. If it were, I'm sure the new priest from Ukraine would put up an iconostas.

PS:
I did notice that they had a married priest (with familly). Seems our dear Vladyka (Bishop) Isidore (talk about charisma) started it but now everyone is doing it. Now why don't the Ruthenians do the same ? You know import married clergy from the old country. You would be surprised how fast they learn English.

You know, you're right!

We could probably use a dozen in the Parma eparchy alone right now.

Perhaps the problem is we don't have an old country, we have several fragments of old countries, and the connection doesn't seem to be too strong anymore. The only Patriarch we can justifiably claim is the one in Constantinople, and he hasn't seen a check from us in 350 years!

Ultimately though, we have to figure this one out for ourselves, we can't count on other peoples' sons serving as our priests, we need to make our own.

Michael

The spectacular new GO Cathedral in Columbus sported a temporary iconostasis for several years. I asked the associate pastor when a permanent one would go in. "When we get the mortgage under a million bucks" said he. Sure enough. There's a permanent one now (marble).

BTW, if any of you get to Columbus anytime, the GO Cathedral of the Annunciation is well worth a visit. It's all mosaics and natural light. It's what happens when you drop about $8 million on a church, import mosaic artisans from Europe, and keep 'em here until it's done.

Cheers,

Sharon
(who has sung a couple weddings there)

Interesting. The Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Atlanta is also the Cathedral of the Annunciation. It's attractive and well-done, but not necessarily stunning or anything.

Logos Teen

This is irrelevant to the icon-screen, so please don't read on unless you are interested in a bit of trivia. As concerns Atlanta, the clergy house of the Roman Catholic Cathedral was at one time the headquarters of the Ku Klux Klan in Georgia! Incognitus