www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology chotki questions

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

If you will pray for me, a great sinner!

I too venerate St Maximos the Greek, especially since he was a former disciple of the Italian reformer, Jerome Savonarola in Italy and left for Russia after his teacher's horrific death. (For me, that's just added icing to the cake ).

I have a friend in Kyiv who belongs to the Bielaya Krinitsa Old Believers and he sent me their calendar of saints, which contains the many Old Believer martyrs, including St Ambrose recently glorified by them. They are planning to glorify the Old Believer Hierarch-Martyr of Kharkiv, Bishop Raphael who is locally venerated by them.

I have an icon of St Avvakum the Hieromartyr and Confessor and it reminds me of his words at the end when he called upon all Christians to use the dvoyeperstiye in signing the Cross on themselves - a model of holiness and dedication to Christ to be sure!

For me, although I am New Rite, the Old Rite is something I've adopted personally, from my neck Cross, to almost everything else.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

I just acquired a woolen prayer rope, but it didn't come with laundering instructions or a manufacturer's warning that it grows. They GROW? And you have to cook them to fix them?!

Maybe beads are a better deal than knots? Sheesh!

Edward: i have the same problem with my 33knot chotki on my wrist. All i do is soke it in cold water and let it air dry over night, that shrinks it again, it also cleans it. Try that.

From: Daniel.
In The Theotokos

Soak and dry, that's all wool needs. Use shampoo if it is really dirty, then water rinse. Wool is pretty forgiving (and naturally fire resistant). I have had the middle line in wooden chotkis break on me before.

Hopefully the growing chotki is symobolic of our spiritual growth and the growth of our prayer life.

Interesting question posed earlier. I have seen icons of several saints post-Old Believer/Archpriest Avakuum times portrayed with Lestovka. The lestovka is such a wonderful way to engage in the Old Believer prayer tradition.

Dear Diak,

You raise a fascinating issue with the Listvitsia or Lestovka (if you want to be Russian about it ).

In actual fact, the Listvitsia or "vervitsa" is the original Slavonic "prayer counter" that was used from the earliest times.

Somehow, the Rosary beads got called the "vervitsia" in the Ukrainian Catholic Church when it should really be called the "Rosaryj."

Beads, woollen and wooden, soon came to predominate, as they were simpler to make. Greek influence in the Kyivan Church was also responsible for the demise of the Listvitsia and Latin influence for the rosary masquerading as the 'vervitsa' in the West.

Alex

Dear Qathuliqa,

I've seen Syriac Orthodox monks use the traditional Asian 108 set beads for chanting their short prayers.

These are very "handy" and easy to use - I highly recommend them!

Alex

Christ Is Among Us!

Isnt the levotska worn around the right or left elbow? how are they used and were can i get one?
Which Jurisdicition church are they found in the most? Im Ruthenian.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Left!

In Christ -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Glory to God for all things!

Dear friends,

Thank you so much for your replies. I have learned much from this thread. I have some additional questions.

I have read that St. Josaphat of Polotsk devoutly prayed the Jesus Prayer. He must have received a chotki (probably a wooden one) when he became a monk.

1) Is there a chotki among his relics?

2) Have you ever seen an icon or a holy card depicting St. Josaphat holding a prayer rope?

3) Do you know of any depictions of Slavic Greek Catholics holding prayer ropes?

Presviataya Bogoroditse Fatimsakaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath martyrs and confessors, pray for us.

Dear Paul,

CIX!
CHB!

The iconography of St Josaphat is quite extensive and ranges from portrayals of him as a Latin bishop holding rosary beads to that of an Eastern bishop.

The Basilian book, "St Josaphat Kuncevic" has a number of icons and pictures of him, some with the prayer rope.

There is no prayer rope with his relics in Rome and this would probably have decomposed if there originally way anyway.

I have seen pictures in historical books on the Studite Fathers holding prayer ropes - one picture had one Father holding a 300 knot rope. Our priests here have them.

Although today those noted for great devotion to St Josaphat are also, and unfortunately, noted as promoters of Latinization, although not all, Josaphat was extremely sensitive about maintaining the Eastern traditions in total.

The Divine Liturgy he served NEVER actually commemorated the Pope at all. His view of communion with Rome to be celebrated liturgically was that it was sufficient to commemorate the name of the Metropolitan in communion with Rome only. The Metropolitan himself commemorated the Pope.

Josaphat also once turned down an offer from someone to establish a Byzantine Rite Carmelite Order.

He felt it was a Latin Order and that it had no place in the Eastern Church.

In fact, he was right to be sensitive about it - but he was actually quite wrong about the roots of Carmel as they were firmly Eastern.

But no one can be right all the time.

Look how wrong I was about the Kolpak.

Another burning issue, to be sure . . .

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your post. You are quite correct regarding St. Josphat's original chotki. It probably would have deteriorated long ago. During the 18th century Russian Orthodox soldiers from the local garrison would venerate his relics by kissing his left hand. There was no mention of a chotki.

I have found five examples of Byzantine Catholic saints holding prayer ropes. Three are representations of Hieromartyr Andrej Sheptytsky. There are two well known photographs of him as Metropolitan. In one he is wearing his white klobuk and holding a wooden chotki in his left hand. In the other he is dressed in black and is holding a long prayer rope in his left hand. His hair and beard are dark so this photograph depicts a young Mtr. Andrej. The third is an icon on the cover of Cyril Korolevsky's "Metropolitan Andrew."

The other two are photographs of St. Nikolaj, bishop martyr. He seems to be holding a wooden chotki. I cannot be certain that this is not a small wooden rosary. I know these are used in Western Ukraine. It is defintely not the large rosary worn as part of his Redemptorist habit worn in other photographs. In both photographs he is dressed exactly like a Russian Orthodox bishop. These were taken 1931-1939 when St. Nikolaj served as bishop of the Russian and "Ritually Russified" Ukrainian and Belarusian churches in Volhynia and Belarus, at that time within the borders of Poland.

You mentioned seeing photographs of Sudite monks holding prayer ropes. Have you seen any of St. Klymentij, Exarch of Russia or of Fr. Roman-Rafail Chomyn (1907-1944)? He was a Studite who was trained at the Russicum for missionary work in Russia. He was hanged by the Soviets during their second occupation and subjugation of Ukraine in 1944.

Presviataya Bogoroditse Fatimskaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath martyrs and confessors, pray for us.