www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology What price liturgical reform?

Fr Deacon Lance recently posted:

The bishops have made their decision. May we all stop arguing about that which we cannot change and humbly, prayerfully, and obediantly submit ourselves to our hierarchs.

Sadly, I think Fr Deacon is right on this point: we cannot change this. The revised Liturgy will most likely be officially promulgated soon. Meetings are already being held to explain this to the clergy.

What are the plusses? Improved liturgical life? Perhaps. Time will tell. Most who oppose the suggested changes admit the possibility of liturgical evolution over time. Questions still remain, however.

Why should the Ruthenian Metropolia implicitly differentiate itself from other Byzantine/Orthodox Chuches--even from those which follow the same rescension? It's been said that we have to act for ourselves. A reform implies that the previous mode was inadequate or lacking. Is that what we want to tell other Byzantine/Orthodox jurisdictions?

There are some improvements. The Filioque is completely gone. Yet, to cite just one continued problem: there seems to be no movement to restore prosphora loaves and ban tupperware from the altar. This is one of the most glaring omissions from the Byzantine tradition where we have followed the Latin custom of prepared bread. Would not the liturgical life of our parishes be enriched by involving parishioners in baking prosphora?

Many of our people view themselves as "Orthodox in communion with Rome." (Many do not.) As Reader Photios has pointed out, these sort of mandated changes will distance us from Orthodox jurisdictions. Those who want to see us closer to Orthodox practice will be faced with a dilemma. I think we all know some who have been impatient with the restoration of tradition who have left us and joined various Orthodox jurisdictions. These often say: "if you want the fullness of Byzantine tradition you can find it in Orthodoxy."

How will these mandated changes affect those who want the Ruthenian Metropolia to "distance themselves as little as possible from Orthodox practice"? Will these changes indicate to some that if they want closeness to Orthodox practice they will need to go elsewhere?

Nec

Preliminary reports on the Archeparchial surveys are in and it is believed that the actual number of full dues-paying, evelope-paying parishioners for the Archeparchy (not including Parma, Passaic, & Van Nuys) has fallen to 15,000! How much lower will those numbers fall when these "mandated" changes to the Ruthenian Recension as celebrated here in America are enforced?

Well at least there other churches other than Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic where many can "transfer" to (ACROD, OCA, etc.).

Ungcsertezs

At the risk of appearing dense, I fail to grasp why Father Deacon or indeed anyone would think that it is impossible to do anything about a decision which will of necessity affect everyone, in which everyone has a legitimate interest, and concerning which almost no one has been invited to offer comments.
"swallow it or get out" are not the only alternatives. A better one is to take the view that "we are not leaving, and we are not swallowing this, for the following good reasons" is much more effective.

Incognitus

Sadly, I fear the same thing is going to happen
to the Ruthenian Byzantine Church as happened
to the RC Church following the suppression of
Tradition and the promulgation of the Novus Ordo,
i.e. declining Mass attendance, even fewer vocations,
et al. Why do those "in charge" of both
"lungs of the Church" seem to have such
an antipathy to Tradition? Are the Tradition-loving
Easterners supposed to join the Orthodox and the
Tradition-loving Westerners supposed to join the SSPX?

If these same sorts of liturgical changes
and inclusive language were forced upon
the Orthodox Church, I very much doubt the
people would meekly accept them.........

15,000? If this figure is accurate we are already in deep doody. There are individual protestant churches in my city with that many members. This is not a good indicator for our survival.

Dear Ungcsertezs

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The Annuario Pontificio shows the population for the Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, USA as 60,290 for 2004, as compared with 60,868 for 2003. These figures have been public for some time now.

These figures are for Pittsburgh alone and do not include Passaic, Parma and Van Nuys.

I would be interested in viewing your sources of this information.

There are genuine problems we are facing concerning the future of our Church. We should not cause undue alarm for the faithful concerning challenges we face. As Reverend Father Tom has indicated on the Evangilization Forum, we must face our future with vision, prayer and a commitment founded in Christ.

My prayers are with you,

Deacon El

Friends,

I tend to agree with Father Loya in the Evangelization forum. This liturgical reform issue is petty compared with so many other matters. The world is going to hell and we worry about a couple of word changes in the liturgy. That doesn't seem very important.

Dan L

Father Deacon,

The 15000 number is an estimated number from the revitalization committee. The previous number was 24000. The Annuario is incorrect. The math is pretty simple: divide the population by number of parishes and mission and does it jive with what we see. 15000 divied by 81 parishes and 3 missions gives an average of 178 parishioners per parish, which sounds about right to me. We certainly don't have the 714 average 60000 gives us.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Hi

First of all, can someone explain me **exactly** and in detail which liturgical changes are to be implemented and what are the differences between your current Byzantine-American ritual and the reformed rituals?

Are they innovative or unconsistent with tradition? Do they represent a true departure from the Orthodox liturgy as Paul VI's liturgical changes did with the traditional Roman liturgy?

Father Deacon Lance,

If the number of parishes is correct the 15,000 number seems quite plausible. It also seems that it would necessitate a serious look at a joint effort among all Eastern Catholic Churches. 15,000 seems like a good number for a few parishes but not for an entire Eparchy. It certainly makes one wonder why we have more than one. Unless...unless...every bishop becomes a very serious evangelist. It could happen.

Dan L

Any changes being considered have not yet been publicly announced; much of the debate here has been based on guesses derived from changes Bishop +Andrew made in his eparchy some years ago. Several of these changes did not make it into the revised text (my observations are based on the texts as used currently in Ss. Cyril and Methodius Seminary in Pittsburgh).

IN GENERAL, as based on the seminary books:

1. A number of priestly prayers, including the Anaphora, will be taken aloud. This is arguably the biggest change, but certainly harks back to St. Justin Martyr's "the bishop gives thanks as well as he is able, and all respond Amen." (paraphrased)

2. The translation of the ordinary, eight tones and festal materials for the Divine Liturgy has been checked against the Greek and Slavonic and a number of retranslations made. The main controversial issue will be how to translate "celovikolub'ce"; "Theotokos" (rather than Godbearer or Birth-giver of God) will be used in place of "Mother of God" wherever the Slavonic text uses "Bohoroditsa" or derived forms.

3. Some litany petitions have been eliminated or combined; HOWEVER, the litanies in the new text are still more complete than those provided in the 1978 Divine Liturgy book used throughout the Archeparchy. The optional verses of the antiphons may be included in a cantor's book but might not be in the people's book; the beatitudes, however, will be in the people's book (they are not included in any of the service books currently in use).

4. Music is being provided for all texts sung by the cantors and people.

5. A more complete set of festal texts is provided for the Divine Liturgy.

Again, there HAS been no formal announcement, so arguments about who mandated what will likely have to wait for that.

Jeff Mierzejewski

Thanks ByzKat for the list.

I hope that the full texts of the antiphon and all of the verses appropriate to feasts can be included.

If the number of verses in the liturgy is abbreviated, I would like to do the three verses or even the entire psalms duing the preparation (which may be an appropriate place for them?) - reprising the first verse during the liturgy. I hate to see us entirely miss the opportunity to instill the texts of these psalms.

I'm glad to hear that it's petty and insignificant.

Then can we stop wasting time with it and not make changes to the liturgy?

Michael Cerularius

Hopefully nothing will be done that will distance the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church from Orthodoxy.

Dan,

I disagree strongly. The Divine Liturgy is the very center of our worship of Jesus Christ. Everything we do as Christians, from praying for our own salvation to bringing the world to Christ, flows from the Divine Liturgy. The form and quality of the celebration of the Divine Liturgy should be of paramount importance to every Christian.

Admin