www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Church Slavonic among Poland's Lemkos

Dear Stojgniew,

Don't miss the private message I sent you.

Sincerely,
deacon Peter

Poh�r is the Hungarian word for a drinking glass. It is current in Slovak and Carpatho-Rusyn, for obvious reasons. Since it is known to the CR immigrants in the USA, it must antedate the interwar period; and I expect that the other magyarisms are all older than that as well. After all, until the First World War the Slovaks and Rusyns were part of the Kingdom of Hungary and were subject to strong Magyarizing pressure; whereas afterward they were part of Czechoslovakia, which did not encourage the spread of Hungarian culture.

Stephen

Stojgniev,

Deacon Peter is correct, although the story is a bit more convoluted than he suggests. Father Cyril, of blessed memory, was a priest of the Melkite Catholic Church.

He came into disfavor as a result of his history of the Melkite Patriarchate of Antioch, which was critical of Patriarch Maximos III Mazloom, of blessed memory, a revered figure in Melkite ecclesial history. Thereafter, seeing his career as a Melkite to be limited, he approached Metropolitan Andriy Sheptytsky, of blessed memory, about transferring his incardination from the Melkite to the Ukrainian Church. It was at that point that he made the name change to Korolevsky.

Many years,

Neil

I suggest pretty nothing but the pure French
origin (and, therefore, complete lack of Slavic
roots) of Fr. Korolevsky.

Well, if we tend to be 100 % accurate, let's
admit that Charon/Korolevsky (BTW: was it a real, legal name change - or simply adopting
of a pseudonym?) felt himself to be Russian rather
than Ukrainian (although in his views Ukrainians
and Russian were in fact one people). His formal
incardination to the archeparchy of L'viv remained
unpublished in clergy directories. And Fr. Cyril, AFAIK, at least sometimes wrote his Slavic surname/pseudonym according to Russian phonetics
with characteristic "akaniye": KARALEVSKIY...

Sincerely,
deacon Peter

Deacon Peter,

The usage of "suggests" in my post is an Americanism that basically means - "there's more to the story than what he posted" . Didn't mean that you were hiding anything.

I seem to recollect that there was a formal name change involved, but won't swear to that. As to the Ukrainian/Russian distinction, remember that this was at a point in time when the Russian GCC was a fledgling and was still essentially under the omophorion of Metropolitan Andriy (it seems to me that the Exarchate would not yet have been erected).

In regards to his incardination into the Lviv Archeparchy, I'm not sure that it ever formally happened. I lent out my copy of his history of the Melkite Patriarchate which has a bio in it; it seems to me that he may have reposed before Metropolitan Andriy took any formal action. If anyone posting has a copy of the history at hand, perhaps they can fill in the blanks.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks to all of you for the input.

Deacon Peter, I was unable to respond directly to you by e-mail. I suppose I can xerox the book & article when I return to Poland in 3 weeks (I'm in the US now dealing with a family emergency). I am overdue to visit Lublin & could personally pass those materials along to you at some point (& attend liturgy in your beautiful church again).

Perhaps you could respond by trading me some info on the Lemkos in Poland who use Slavonic? I am still trying to determine the # of Greek Catholic parishes using Slavonic & their administrative/organizational status. Do the Lemko parishes represent a deanary or independent jurisdiction? Who makes the decision about the language of liturgy? What is the language of homilies? I was told that the Lemko language of homilies (as well as the Lemko version of Slavonic in the liturgies) differs from Ukrainian by "intonation" or accent. Are there any specific linguistic features distinguishing the Lemko & Ukrainian "pronunciations"? Or is just something like a Michigan & Mississippi accent, that only a native speaker can distinguish?


I don't have details on Beck having Greek Cathlic ancestry, but can tell you that Zieba is a reliable source. Has no obvious national or religious prejudices. But the article doesn't provide details on Beck.

Too bad that the info on the first English- and Ukrainian-language liurgies is not well documented.

Diak, do you have the name & publication info on that parish history. I would like to mention Toth in my article. Anybody know when the OCA introduced English liturgies in the US?

The info on Father Cyril is quite interesting. And his book is fascinating. Too bad that American Slavists don't know about it (they would be put off by the title anyway, which doesn't exactly describe the contents). My copy was apparently pulled/discarded from a seminary library. (Barnes & Nobles still has other copies available)

Rev Cyril has a detailed account of the dispute with Wiching & Methodius based on archival materials. I have never read such a detailed description of those events! Nasty guy, that Wiching! I like him even less now after reading Father Cyril's account.

Rev Cyril writes about liturgical languages with great insight. He demonstrates that there are always disputes over language & that arguments can be found for both sides of most linguistic disputes.

That is the point of my article on liturgical languages in Poland, which is slowly coming along & I hope to publish in one of the American Slavistic journals.

I am examining different viewpoints - letters in Orthodox publications & postings from the internet. It's interesting that nearly all of the debate is in Polish. You might expect that internet-savvy people would prefer vernacular to Slavonic, which is what I've found. Some people argue: we must use Polish in the churches & we must preserve our heritage! They don't think through the issues of assimilation. On the other hand, they listen to a homily on Sunday that is, as they say, po chachlacku 'mumbo-jumbo' that is supposed to be some mixture of Russian & Slavonic. I wish I had more anecdotes - there's the one about the priest in Warsaw who kept talking about 'patron', some patron saint (Polish borrowing). There was someone in the congregation who actually knew Russian & understood that he was talking about a rifle shell.

I'm glad to know that people in America share my interest in Slavonic. Too bad American Slavs have not had an interest to study, learn & promote Slavonic. I remain convinced that there is a corner (a vast expanse?) of paradise where only Slavonic is spoken.

Stojgniev

...and St. Alexis was only in Minneapolis until 1893. :p

Dave

Here's my summary of arguments for & against Slavonic in the churches of the Polish Orthodox Church (where except for a single church the liturgy is in Slavonic - the homily is usually in a mix of Russian & Slavonic):

pro Slavonic

Slavonic is sacred, with power to influence the profane.
(Vernacular is inadequate for the liturgy).
Slavonic is symbolic .
Slavonic represents tradition and has dignity.
Slavonic is ageless.
(Vernacular constantly changes, requiring modification of texts).
Slavonic is �distant� enough to express the sacred, while �near� enough to impart meaning for those who understand Russian and other contemporary Slavic languages.
Slavonic sounds pleasing to the ear (cf. Polish sounds awkward and inadequate in the Eastern liturgy).
Slavonic satisfies a believer�s linguistic, political, or ethnic preferences.
Slavonic supports ethnic heritage in the face of Polish assimilation and unites all East Slavs.
(Vernacular introduces in the Church inappropriate political and nationalist passion).
(Vernacular encourages an ethnolinguistic basis for national churches).
(According to a traditional Russian Orthodox view, vernacular is for �backward� nations).
(Polish in the liturgy represents a �Trojan Horse� that leads to Catholicism and Polish assimilation).

pro vernacular

No divine or natural law dictates the number of languages of worship.
The origins of Slavonic are associated with Sts. Cyril and Methodius, champions of the vernacular
Ukrainian, Belorusian, and Polish are also languages �given by God� .
The vernacular is an instrumental language with practical application.
(Few understand Slavonic; that group is restricted to a minority of clergymen who have studied the language).
Vernacular unites the community of worshippers.
(Slavonic alienates many believers, especially the youth).
(Slavonic impedes the spiritual development of young people).
Vernacular satisfies a believer�s linguistic, political, or ethnic preferences.
East Slavic vernaculars encourage a positive manifestation of nationalism and help to prevent assimilation with Poles and Roman Catholics.
There are frequent �errors� and a lack of uniformity in the varieties of Slavonic used in church; homilies supposedly in Russian represent po chachłacku �mumbo-jumbo�.
Polish is today the language of everyday communication for nearly all believers .
Religious instruction in churches is already conducted in Polish.


Stojgniev

Church-Slavonic liturgical texts are far from being immutable. Experts can fairly easily tell the ethnic provenance of a given text - especially if it is read aloud. The process of change is ongoing, and the language is influenced by the various vernacular milieux amongst which it is used.

I enjoy Church-Slavonic immensely, and would be sorry to see it go, but the notion that it is not subject to change is inaccurate. But that brings up a question: since the language is still changing every now and then, does that mean that it's a living language after all?

Incognitus

Incognitus,

Of course, you are right, there are Serbian, Russian etc recensions.

One can even argue that there is a Polish recension, since Church Slavonic is still being composed in Poland, e.g. the canonization of Saint Maxim. There's an interesting book by Naumow (probably the current authority) on CS in Poland. He gives one example of change: in a verse composed in honor of, I think it was Sts. Cyril & Methodius, the traditional dual forms should be used for verbs, nouns, pronouns, but the author uses the plural.

The arguments for/against Slavonic are not my own, simply what I encounter. Note that this one appears on both lists: "Vernacular satisfies a believer�s linguistic, political, or ethnic preferences". If anyone can add other arguments, I would like to know them.

Stojgniev

I would be grateful indeed.

We'll have a meeting of clergy at the end
of February, so I'll try to ask priests
from Lemkovyna about Slavonic Liturgies.

There is no organizational "Lemko" structure. Greek-Catholic parishes in Lemkovyna belong
to two deaneries: Sanok and Cracow-Krynica.
Lemko dialect has permanent accent just like
Polish language. But this is only one difference
between this dialect and litterary Ukrainian.
There are more difference between them, for instance Lemkos have both "Ukrainian >y<" and
"Russian >y<" in their vesrion of Cyrillic.

Beck's GC ancestry could be, if any, on
maternal
side rather than paternal. As a professional
historian I know well who A.A. Zieba is, I red
many his publications, I just haven't this article.

Sincerely,
deacon Peter

When I was in Poland, I used to spend some of my weekends in Lemkovina, particularly the village of Losie, near Gorlice. When I visited the cemetary I noticed that a lot of the headstones, even the newer ones,were printed in Old Church Slavonic, not Ukrainian. This was in the years 1978-1981

This question is related to liturgical language though not to the Lemkos:

Can anyone provide information about the introduction of Estonian in the Orthodox liturgy? I heard that it was a controversial decision & caused quite a bit of ill will. I'm curious about the specifics.

Stojgniev

Stojgniev,

I don't recollect any particular storm specifically over the introduction of Estonian as a liturgical language, although the history of Orthodoxy in Estonia in recent times is itself a catalogue of ill-feelings. See:

Orthodox Church of Estonia [orthodoxa.org]

History of the Orthodox Church of Estonia [orthodoxa.org]

The Churchmouse that Roared [holy-trinity.org]

Many years,

Neil

Dear Stojgniew,

I have just received Zieba article you sent me
yesterday. I hope you'll be able to send me photocopy of Korolevsky's books as well.
I have composed a survey for our priests who are going to have a gathering in Lublin next week.
Please read it now and make your suggestions if necessary.
I'll try to convince our clergymen to fill this. But I have no guarantee of success.

ANKIETA NA TEMAT J&#280;ZYKA LITURGII I KAZA&#323; W GRECKOKATOLICKICH PARAFIACH &#321;EMKOWSZCZYZNY AD 2005

PARAFIA.......................................................................................................

DEKANAT......................................................................................................


I. J&#280;ZYK LITURGICZNY


1) J&#281;zykiem liturgicznym w parafii jest:

a) cerkiewnos&#322;owia&#324;ski
b) ukrai&#324;ski
c) oba &#8211; prosz&#281; bli&#380;ej opisa&#263; zakres ich u&#380;ywania w liturgii............................................................................................................................................................................ .................................................................................................................................................................................... .....................

2) Stan obecny datuje si&#281;:
a) od zawsze
b) od roku (wpisa&#263;).............................................
c) inna odpowied&#378; .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................
3) Decyzj&#281; w sprawie ustanowienia takiego porz&#261;dku podj&#261;&#322;:
a) biskup eparchialny samodzielnie
b) proboszcz/administrator parafii samodzielnie
c) parafianie
d) soborczyk duchowie&#324;stwa lub rada kap&#322;a&#324;ska
e) inna odpowied&#378; (np. proboszcz w porozumieniu z parafianami, biskup na pro&#347;b&#281; parafian itp.)............................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... ......................

II. J&#280;ZYK KAZNODZIEJSTWA


1) Jaki j&#281;zyk u&#380;ywany jest w parafii podczas kaza&#324;?

a) literacki ukrai&#324;ski
b) gwara &#322;emkowska
c) inna odpowied&#378; (np. oba w ka&#380;dym kazaniu, oba zamiennie co drug&#261; niedziel&#281; itp.) .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... ....................................


2) Stan obecny datuje si&#281;:
a) od zawsze
b) od roku (wpisa&#263; rok).............................................
c) inna odpowied&#378; .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... ........................................................................................................................
3) Decyzja w sprawie ustanowienia takiego porz&#261;dku podj&#281;ta zosta&#322;a przez:
a) biskupa eparchialnego samodzielnie
b) proboszcza/administratora parafii samodzielnie
c) parafian
d) soborczyk duchowie&#324;stwa lub rad&#281; kap&#322;a&#324;sk&#261;
e) inna odpowied&#378; (np. przez proboszcza w porozumieniu z parafianami, przez biskupa na pro&#347;b&#281; parafian itp.)............................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... ......................


Please respond as soon as possible. We haven't
much time...

Sincerely,
deacon Peter