www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why are Melkites better than us?

Dear Friends,

In the midst of all this liturgical discussion, I was wondering how is it that our Melkite colleagues have managed to: a) maintain their original Orthodox liturgical traditions better than anyone else "in union with Rome"; b) keep very close to their Orthodox counterparts both liturgically and ecumenically; and c) be a prime example of an Eastern Catholic ideal?

What makes overwhelming Latinization impermeable to Melkites?

What is so special about them or their situation in this respect?

And what is preventing us from emulating their example?

Over to everyone!

Alex

Alex,
I will speak from my limited experience of the Melkites and my contact with them.

As I noted else where, they have had a history of pro-western and neo-orthodox (their term) groups.

From their perspective it goes like this, that one of the reasons they have been able to resist latinizations and been able to keep a close relationship with their Orthodox counterparts is do to the late date of their return to Catholicism. That they did not reunite with Rome until the 18th century, so there hasn't been as much time for them to get latinizated.

Also, with the closing of their seminary (when did this happen anyways?) they now use Holy Cross Orthodox Seminary with a Melkite study house, keeps them in close proximity to the Orthodox. Our pastor at the Melkite church here in western New York graduated with the pastor of one of the local Greek Orthodox Churches.

I think these two things are formost in why they are as they are today.

I also think it has to do with having a Patriarch and a stong connection to the "old country", most of the people at the parish I belong to where either born there and left at a young age, left when older, or are just first generation americans.

Also, as I stated elsewhere, there is a group in our parish that is trying to latinize it as we speak. Cut the litinaies, shorten the liturgy, use musical instruments, female altar servers.... and much more.

But it is also my understanding that there are some very latinized melkite parishes out there.


Just my 2 cents (or nickle for you Alex),
David

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Well, Alex, the history of their union with Rome (with which you are probably familiar)would probably help answer some of your questions.

However, I would argue that the Melkite Greek Catholic Church is not immune to Latinizations. It is true that it is very close, liturgically and politically with its Orthodox counterpart, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, but the Antiochians are quite Latinized. In some parishes their choirs wear robes like Baptists and their priests are beardless with suits. In some cases they even have organs that they use during services.

Is this Latinization or just "North Americanization"? I do not know how it is in Lebanon.

Daniil

Dear David and Daniil,

(Prophetic names in more ways than one!)

Yes, "North Americanization" - that's a good term and it COULD possibly account for a number of things occuring within the Antiochian Church, as in others.

Ties to the home country - that might not help Ukrainians as both Catholics and Orthodox in Western Ukraine can be very Latinized. I have a Ukrainian Orthodox Stations of the Cross pamphlet. . .

So, for your money, what two or three things might Ruthenian/Ukrainian Catholics adopt from the Melkite praxis that could possibly steer us away from Latinizations/Modernizations?

You both are suggesting closer proximity to the Orthodox, either by way of seminary training or other ways.

Alex

I recently had a conversation with a lebanese girl, she isn't melkite, she is maronite.
I told her that I was very interested in the syriac chant and the liturgical traditions of her church, so she told me something like this:
"you may get dissapointed as well as most of the westerners who have interest in ancient churches, if you come here and go to a parish you won't find syriac chant, but "modernized" "Tarkan-styled" music with instruments and even Arab rock.

When I asked her about the melkites she didn't know what to say, until I said "rum", so she said she didnt know about them because they were Palestinians.

This is a tricky question.

We cannot model ourselves on one particular Orthodox Church, the way the Melkites can. Ukrainian Catholics are unique. Being politically and geographically divided from Kyiv, old litrugical traditions were kept that the church in Kyiv lost, and sometimes we developed new traditions which they did not. I think, Liturgically speaking, we have to just look into our own treasures and actually follow our own traditions.

I don't think the Melkites are the model. What we have to do is stop being "Uniate". We must be Orthodox in Liturgy and Theology, and Catholic in the sense of ecumenism and social matters (which have not been thriving in Orthodox Churches). By being Liturgically Orthodox, I do not mean just copying what they do at the Alexander Nevsky Lavra or at the Theophany Cathedral. I mean just doing our stuff right -- being dignified. That's what we "uniates" are missing.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

Now that you are back in the shadow of the Holy Spirit Seminary - and your Spirit-filled parents - you sound truly relaxed and ready to take on all Eastern issues - good!

I agree with you, to be sure.

Bl. Basil Velichkovsky tended to follow the principle of adopting ALL Ukrainian Orthodox traditions ("that weren't against the faith") and being as Orthodox as possible in this way.

Is this what you mean?

Is that workable?

Who can go into our "Uniate" history and say "this and this is a Latinization" and "this and this isn't?"

Alex

I am not sure what can help us out Alex. I think there is a mindset that the Melkites have and cultivate that we do not have.

Like the questions of are we Byzantine Catholics or Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.... This thought would never cross the mind of the Melkites I know and if asked their answer would be that they are Orthodox who happen to be in union with Rome (your answer!).

This past Sunday, Sunday of the Fathers of the First Six Ecumenical Councils.... In his homily, Fr Ken (melkite pastor) commented on the frist six ecumenical councils and the fact that the Orthodox recognize seventh ecumenical councils, but that the seventh wasn't recognized as ecumenical until the eighth council. He went on to mention that the Roman Catholics have, something like 22 ecumenical councils but that those after the seventh occurred after the Great Schism and really only address the west. He went on to say that the Orthodox, and the Melkites, view all the councils after the seventh as general.

I think the idea of sharing seminaries with the Orthodox but having study houses for each of us as a good idea.

Then this seminary could publish a good translation that all of the churches, orthodox and byzantine catholics, could use.


I don't know about this Remie, all the members of the Melkite church I attend are lebanese, yes three of them are maronite, but the rest are Melkite.


David

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

David B,

Your idea of a single seminary sound kind of like the OCA and St. Vladimir's Seminary.

Alex,

Bl. Basil Velichkovsky tended to follow the principle of adopting ALL Ukrainian Orthodox traditions ("that weren't against the faith") and being as Orthodox as possible in this way. Is this what you mean? Is that workable?
Who can go into our "Uniate" history and say "this and this is a Latinization" and "this and this isn't?"

So are you saying we should just copy the Orthodox in everything? That is not what I meant.

By being Liturgically Orthodox, I do not mean just copying what they do at the Alexander Nevsky Lavra or at the Theophany Cathedral. I mean just doing our stuff right -- being dignified.

I mean that we should follow OUR typicon fully, and not be worried about being Galician, as long as we are being authentic.

Once the Patriarchate is moved to Kyiv we will have some problems. Do we follow Kyivan traditions? High-backs? Kyivan typicons and chant?

Daniil

I dunno about the historical stuff, but it has been my totally unscientific observation based upon three Melkite communities I've had the pleasure of visiting & joining in prayer, that the Melkites have a tremendous sense of hospitality - a welcoming spirit that we would do well to imitate.


Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Amen to what Sister Sharon has to say. The hospitality issue is a big one. (I visited a Ruthenian parish lately -- I've been on the road A LOT!-- I sang my little heart out, participated fully without the book, went to receive, and venerated the tetrapod upon arriving and leaving the church. I lingered in the vestibule, smiled a lot, said "Good morning" to a number of people, and got nothing more than a nod from one elder gentleman. I'd have been better off going to a local bar for Mary's and brunch. Oh well, at least I got communion.)

Apropos the Melkites, I think that living as a distinct minority in a geographic area tends to blur the distinctions between Christian groups. I understand that this was the situation during the Nazi and Soviet occupations of Ukraine.

As for liturgical harmony, I must stress that the further we get away from the practices and mindsets of our Orthodox brethren, the more difficult it will be for Eastern CAtholic communities to survive as viable churches. And it is the community-sense that makes the parishes attractive both to our Orthodox brethren and to those who are seeking. We've got to do things together (like praying and liturgicizing) but also doing the fun stuff too. (Food immediately comes to mind!)

Blessings!

Amen Dr. John! I think it was Fulton Sheen, of blessed memory, who used to say that as many or more converts were made downstairs over coffee than upstairs over the homily...

I couldn't agree with you more Daniil...we have a beautiful liturgikon and Ordo, we just need to stick to the plan and do things right. Heck, the Liturgikon (1988 Synodal version) has the rubrics and text for the litany of the catechumens, full restoration of all three antiphons/psalms of typika, notes when to open and close the doors, teplota, and other gems.

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Alex,
I discussed this a bit at our Bible Study last night.

The Melkites present agreed with what I have said but added this bit.

If you would have checked them out 50 years ago you would have seen a very latinized church. This parish in particular had no icon screen, used kneelers, and had statues.

They list, among other things, the work of certain individuals in their turn around. Such as Archbishop Elias Zoghby, Archbishop Joseph Raya, and there is another whose name escapes me right now.

Now, if we are to follow their footsteps there will be many growing pains. Such as this parish, it has about one third (or less) of the numbers currently as it did back in the good old latinized days.

If we worry about loseing people then we will stay as we are.

As for the hospitality issue brought up by Sharon and Dr John. Yes this is a good thing and is the very reason I chose to attend the Melkite Church over the Ukrainian Churches.


David

Dear David,

Well, all I can say is you haven't visited my father-in-law's Church of St Volodymyr in Thornhill!!

In terms of hospitality, this parish takes second place to none, Big Guy.

We had a priest who was a retired teacher and never had any dealings with a parish.

He was so very timid, but just as soon as he got his epitrachelion off, we pulled him into the Church Hall next door and we were all over him!

He even wrote a report to the Bishop to comment on how he's never seen a parish "coffee house" like it.

Local people who don't attend the liturgy actually wait outside for the coffee house experience to begin.

Nestor has made friends (and signed-up parishioners) with Ukrainian Catholics, Melkites, Coptic Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Ukrainian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Belarusian Orthodox.

They even have a pilgrimage to the Icon of Zhirovits that is in Belarus. During our formal pilgrimage, we had two visitors from Zhirovits, Ukrainians who were Belarusian citizens.

I've attended our Melkite parish nearby and, frankly, while they are nice, they're not as nice as my daddy-in-law. (Do you think I might be biased in some way? ).

As for Dr. John, I am sorry about his experience, but then again, I can hardly be responsible for it since he did attend a Ruthenian parish . . .

A strong social experience that goes together with an integrally strong liturgical experience sounds like just what the Doctor ordered for our Church.

But our parish is quite "Latinized" and we have the old-style Molebens and not everyone crosses themselves properly . . .

I noticed the latter with some perturbation until I realized that the reason there was such variety in the Sign of the Cross had to do with the various Churches that these parishioners have their origin in!

Next year, we're having Byzantine Rite St Patrick's Day celebration with the blessing of the Shamrock!!

I did some research on the man who constructed our 150+ year old Church.

He was an Englishman, John Edey, whose award-winning buildings are still studied by the School of Architecture in the University of Toronto (we almost purchased an historical home he constructed in the neighbourhood).

He built that Church for the large Irish community there.

We now have a Panakhyda for him and his family with a permanent memorial to him in the back of our Church.

It's an Irish pioneer Church with an iconostasis.

Alex

Alex - maybe that's why I am more drawn to reels and jigs than hopaks and kozachoks ? My wife's Irish and has a lot to say about that as well...