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What is the Sacred Tradition of the Byzantine Catholic Churches concerning the Communion of Saints? I know it is contained in the Creed, but what exactly is meant by it?

The nuns taught us in Roman Catholic grade school that it referred to those in Heaven (the Church Triumphant); those in Purgatory(the Church Suffering, or something like that; and those on Earth (the Church Militant). I have no idea what they teach today.

The Roman Catholic Church seemed to shy away from any discussion of the metaphysical aspects of the Communion of Saints. Of course, the Jesuits did not shy away from a discussion, but it was difficult to understand them when I was in high school and college.

JP

Dear JP,

Since the theologians here have yet to respond to your question, I'll give it a stab!

To me, the Communion of Saints is the fundamental, existential unity of all members of the Body of Christ that is the Church, on earth, in heaven and even those who are in the process of being purified for heaven.

That unity is expressed by our ability to pray to and pray for one another, assisting one another by praying for an increase of the Grace of Christ that we might all be ever more responsive to the divinizing Energies that flow from us from Christ and the Holy Trinity within the dynamic context of an ever-growing participation in Christ's Divine LIfe.

In the Eastern Church, the aspect of the "social" is all-pervasive. For example, we constantly invoke the Holy Trinity directly e.g. "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" and this is a social/liturgical framework of relating to God.

The salvation of Christ is, first and foremost, related to not only healing the damage of our individual relationship to God, but also the damage of our relationship to one another and the Cosmos as a result of sin.

As interdependent members of the Body of Christ, we reflect the Divine community of the Holy Trinity as we glorify in our bodies the Lord Jesus.

The Holy Spirit vivifies that Body as He "rests on the Son."

He therefore rests on us as members of the Body of Christ and the Most Holy Mother of God is also our mother who nurtures spiritually the Body of Christ that is the Church, just as she nurtured Christ during her life on earth.

Salvation is also mediated in Christianity and so we mediate salvation to one another and to the world in Christ the One Mediator through our prayers, sufferings etc. in which we act as one with Christ in obedience to His Will and our vocation in openness to His Divine Love.

Anyway, I'm sure others with much more to say will be along shortly!

Alex

John look up what the Catholic Church teaches in the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, everyone should have a copy in their homes. Very good reading.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel,

What does that Catechism say about Theosis?

Are you saying the BC Churches don't have their understanding of the Communion of Saints that is different from that of the Latin Church?

Alex

John is RC and does not have a current understanding of this from that stand point.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel,

John may BECOME EC under our positive influence!

But he is asking about the EC understanding about the Communion of Saints, is he not?

I know I'm getting old, so please check his original post and let me know . . .

Alex

Yes you are definately getting old . I know I am. John asked that particular question and you answered it. He is an RC and is no familiar with his own churches view point. I told him where to find it. He may need to know from whence he comes from before he moves to another place in the church. Part of making a better and more informed choice.

So now he is fully armed and sharing in our wisdom he can get on and do some reading.

Yours in creaking joints.

ICXC
NIKA

I am interested about the Eastern teaching on the interaction between those on earth and those in Heaven (including those on their way to Heaven), the ability to pray for one another, intercession for one another, and the effect of such prayers and intercessions. See generally, James 5: 16:20.

I am also interested in any Eastern Sacred Traditions and practices. I have a grasp on the significance of Icons. Are there devotions involving Relics and Novenas? Can you have a special relationship with specific Saints or is the relationship only to the collective Communion of Saints?

JP

Pavel Ivanovich:

I am quite knowledgeable about the Irish Catholic point of view, especially that of the Gaeltacht. It differs from the official Roman Catholic teaching.

One phone call to my Aunt Hannah will suffice for the practices in the Gaeltacht region of Connaught. I also can look in the Catechism for the official line from the Vatican, the one stamped Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

I am more interested in learning about the Eastern Sacred Traditions.

JP

There is no such thing as different understandings of the RC positon in different countries. The Catechism is for the whole world. This is IT. The only people who hold a different position from it's contents would be people outside the church.

ICXC
NIKA

Pavel Ivanovich:

I talked to my sister tonight who explained the current Roman Catholic theology of the Communion of Saints. She teaches theology at a Roman Catholic school. I would be ready for the final exam if I were still in school.

In light of the fact that I know from whence I come, I would like to learn about the Eastern Churches' Sacred Traditions of the Communion of Saints.

Do you have any input for me?

JP

Dear John Patrick,

The Eastern Churches truly do believe that prayer to Saints and those we believe are in heaven are heard by them (as God communicates our prayers and requests to them) and that they pray for us.

One Eastern saint once saw how, as he said, "All Saints, pray unto God for me!" all the Saints of Heaven fell before the Divine Throne and said "Lord have mercy on him!"

We keep icons of our Saints at home in special icon corners and walls and venerate these icons highly by candles, kissing etc.

Invocations to saints fill our liturgical tradition with akathists, canons, molebens and other prayer services.

The icons of the Saints decorate our churches, as you know and they represent the Communion of Saints and cloud of witnesses that surround us, pray for us and help us to heaven.

When we are baptized as children, it is not necessary for us to give personal assent, as personal assent from us is not that upon which baptism depends - it depends on the faith of the Church.

We tend to honour our patronal namesake saints first and foremost, then those of our parish church, and other patrons, national saints and so on.

Am I going in the right direction to answer your question?

Alex

Alex:

These are precisely the issues I would like to discuss. I did not know "God communicates our prayers and requests to [the Saints]." I had always presumed it was the other way around.

I now have a better explanation to give my Protestant friends who say they pray straight to God, and wonder why I would pray to the Saints.

JP

Dear John Patrick,

Yes, as we are members of the Body of Christ that is the Church, the Holy Spirit is our "medium of communication" based also on the scriptural verse, "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful before God."

So clearly, there are prayers that are more or less "powerful" - and the Saints are truly "powerful" before God!

Salvation is always mediated and it is mediated to us through the "Man Jesus Christ" as Paul says or the Humanity of the Divine Son of God - also through His Church, founded on the Apostles and Martyrs.

Just as the Most Holy Virgin Mary nurtured the Body of Christ when He was on earth, so too does she continue to nurture the Body of Christ that is the Church with her prayers and intercessions - "behold your mother!" our Lord told St John under the Cross.

I've often wondered why our Lord felt He needed to say this to John - He had already told His mother to "behold your son!"

It almost sounds redundant - but not so, if we consider that in giving her to John, He was giving her to us as our mother.

And in the first two chapters of Luke's gospel, it is amazing that both the Angel and St Elizabeth bless the Virgin Mary - both heaven and earth praise and bless her!

And St Elizabeth, filled with the HOly Spirit, and it was the Spirit Who shaped her words, proclaimed "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the Fruit of your womb!"

In other words, the Spirit was praising MARY first and ahead of the "Fruit of her womb!"

Christ came to us by means of Mary and we go to Him by the same means!

Alex

Alex:

Ah, you too have read and pondered James 5:16.

This passage always leads me to ponder 1 John 5:16. Specifically, the Bible I mark up with my yellow highlighter and post-it notes says: "There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray."

This passage may or may not relate to the my inquiry about the Communion of Saints. In any event, I always wondered if the passage is saying it is futile to pray for the forgiveness of deadly sin of another, or if John is simply making no comment one way or the other.

JP