www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Praying the Imprecatory Psalms

Brothers of the forum --

Just recently I had the sad issue of a falling out with a friend. It came to the point that I was very uncomfortable with this relationship and asked to break it off and have each of us go our separate ways.

Unfortunately, due to a misunderstanding regarding some of my actions, this man became quite incensed and wound up calling my priest (5 times in one day!) and threatening to both take me to court as well as to show up at our parish and confront me.

My response to this was to go to the part of our prayer book which offers Psalms for one being persecuted. I was quite surprized as I began to pray these Psalms that they are highly imprecatory in nature. Go look for yourself. There are calls for God to smite one's enemy quite thoroughly.

This was not exactly what I had in mind, but it brings a question to mind for me. Are we, as believers in the New Covenant, supposed to pray imprecatory prayers against the wicked who are persecuting us?

I remember reading (I believe it was Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER) about a time in the Church in the third century when the Roman persecution was particularly hot and heavy. There were 30 procurators in the empire who were really giving the Church a terrible time. The people of God got together and prayed for deliverance and within a year, 27 of them were dead and the other 3 were of no consequence. The Lord protected His people.

Now I bring that up for this reason: there are politicians out there who are decidedly evil, who support evil doings (such as abortion on demand, gay marriages, and the persecution of the Church for not following along with the world). Is such a prayer as this particularly wrong (and why is it wrong?):

God, we ask that you take __________________ and remove him from office because of his pro-abortion stand. We ask that he either be defeated in this election, or that he die in office. Because you know the hearts of all men, we leave the HOW of it up to you and to your perfect justice. If possible, we would like to see this man/woman converted to the truth and stop doing evil. We leave this all in your hands, asking that you would move in mercy to protect the lives of the innocent unborn. Amen.

Bad prayer?

I was told so by some of my friends when I discussed this idea with them.

I am interested in as many opinions as I can get on this from the members of this forum.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

I can't answer your first few questions, but I don't think that's a bad prayer. You're praying that they be converted to Truth, but if this isn't possible, that they be stopped (in whatever manner God sees fit) from doing harm to innocent people.

ChristTeen287

Well, I felt that leaving it in God's hands was the proper thing to do rather than just saying "I hate 'em....kill 'em all!!!"

But boy, did I git raked over the coals by Catholics on another board for even the suggestion that we pray for death for those who are set and determined to do wickedness.

Brother Ed

Ed,

Once again I'm going to ask you to watch what you post here. Praying for the death of anyone is contrary to the Christian spirit. The Gospel tells us we are to pray for their well-being! Dead people cannot repent, cannot be reconciled with God. Therefore, we do not pray for their death but for them to experience metanoia (conversion).

Do not let your anger get the best of you again on this board! That, BTW, is not a suggestion.

Edward, deacon, sinner and MODERATOR

Altar Boy,

This summer I was reading a book by Thomas Merton about praying the psalms because I had the same question. Unfortunatly, I left the book at a friend's house in Chicago and didn't get to finish it. If you can get your hands on it, though, it may be of some help to you.

In terms of your question, what I do with those psalms is think about my own sins and weaknesses as the enemies that I want God to smite.

Elizabeth

Dear Altar Boy,

I appreciate your honesty and the question you raise. As I understand it, the New Covenant Church accepted the Old Testament primarily as a Christological statement. Only in modern times has there been a whole-sale rejection of this Christological approach to the Old Testament by so-called Western Bible-Scholars.

The Psalms are accepted by the Church for precisely the same reason: Christ. Therefore we pray these psalms in the Light of Christ. Seeing that "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," the Imprecatory Psalms, therefore, are to be prayed against these spiritual agents of Evil, and not who we perceive as our earthly human enemies.

And I would agree with the others that Christians do not pray directly for the death of people no matter how evil they might be. We pray that they may be stopped in their wickedness (which could be perceived as an indirect call for their death) but we always leave open the hope for conversion of the wicked one.

After all, whether one is a mass murderer, a child molester, a promoter of unGodly life-styles or whatever: that person is you and me accept for the grace of God.

And being we are supposed to do unto others as we would like to be done unto ourselves: surely none of us would wish that others would pray for our death while in a state of rebellion against God. We would rather that people would pray for our reconcilliation with God before our death. We even pray in our Armenian Divine Liturgy of St. Athanasius that God grant us more years inorder that we may do pennance for our past sins before we stand before the judgement seat of Christ. I don't think we would pray the opposite for those who oppose God.

Trusting in Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

The Psalms are accepted by the Church for precisely the same reason: Christ. Therefore we pray these psalms in the Light of Christ. Seeing that "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," the Imprecatory Psalms, therefore, are to be prayed against these spiritual agents of Evil, and not who we perceive as our earthly human enemies.

I understand what you are saying, however, the prayers in our prayer book do not make this distinction, and quite frankly, sound like they are directed towards human and personal enemies rather than the "princes of the power of the air".

I guess this further gets down to whether or not God actually still acts in vengence against the wicked. St. Paul seems to think so:

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

Now if St. Paul says that God will indeed recompense tribulation to them who trouble us (persecute - no just cause small problems), is it wrong that we pray along these lines for deliverence?

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Again, God takes from us any supposed "right" we think we have for revenge when we think we have been wronged, BUT....He does say that He will be the one who recompenses. And this is a good thing, because it is He alone who knows the reasons of action, the motives of the heart behind a man's actions. THIS I cannot know...therefore, praying and leaving the outcome with Him is a good thing.

I would further ask you, Fr. Deacon Ed, with respect to your position of honor in our Lord's Church, what did our Lord mean by this parable:

Luke 19: 11- 27

I would be interested in your understanding of this parable and your teaching on it.

And finally, I am somewhat put off by your attitude towards me in that I am not necessarily advocating violence towards others or saying that having them die is a good thing (especially those who die out of the friendship of God). I am asking questions because I am perplexed by all this and I am equally perplexed by both Church history, as well as the words of our Lord in Scripture. It seems that the Church, which is the kingdom of God, and of which it is said in the Apocalypse, "...for the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ..." which suggests that the Church is supposed to RULE AND REIGN instead of being cowed by the wicked and trembling in a corner.

Oh yeah, and then I am reminded of our "saint of the day", Nestor, who, upon seeing the emperor make Christians enter the ring to fight a gladiator, took up a sword and killed the gladiator, for which he was beheaded, having embarrassed the wicked emperor.

What to make of THAT????

Anyhow, I be interested in your comments on the Lukian passage.

Brother Ed

Brother Ed

Father Deacon Ed,

I don't know if I agree with Altar Boy's views on these Psalms and their meaning, but I never inferred from his primary post that he wished for the death of his human enemies. He specifically said he left it up for God to decide on how their evil should be dealt with; if God chooses to accomplish this through their death, so be it. It is God's decision. Of course we would pray for their "metonoia", but in the end, He is the Judge. It seems you (and some others on this board) have come off a little hard on Altar Boy and sometimes put words in his mouth. Let's all get along!

ChristTeen287

Thank you, Christteen.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I did not post that I even agree with that prayer. I am wondering about its propriety in light of the imprecatory psalms as well as other things. It is very confusing to me right now.

The reason it is so confusing is that, as I told a friend today after liturgy, I have come to realize that I am not really either Catholic or Orthodox yet. I am basically right now a eucharistic Protestant who is in need of becoming fully Catholic in my enculturalization and thinking.

I see the mercy of Christ towards those who do not even love or care for Him as one would see a very distant light -- it is there, it is seen, but I cannot make out its form or shape precisely. It will take considerable prayer and growth for me to begin to see many things within this light more clearly.

BTW -- I notice that you are from Georgia. I am assuming the state in the south of the USA and not the republic over in Europe.

I was raised outside of Atlanta. Where are you at exactly?

Brother Ed

Your welcome, Ed.

Yes, I am from the good ole Southland, not the republic. I'm an hour west and a little south of Atlanta, five miles from the Alabama line. Where were you raised specifically?

ChristTeen287

Northeast of Atlanta, just outside the very small town of Tucker (at least, it WAS small in those days back in the '50's).

Sure do miss it. You can take the boy out of the South, but you never quite take the South out of the boy. It's a mystical thing.

Brother Ed

Ed,

The parable you cite is in reference to our spreading the Good News. We are called to bring the message of the Love of God to all. Those who fail to respond will face the Just Judge and God will decide what to do with them. Such decisions are not for you or for me.

Asking questions is one thing -- but ask questions, don't make assertions.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Altar Boy,

I had no problem with your asking the question (as I indicated in the beginning of my post). I don't think the question revolves around the Lord taking vengence. This, for me, is a given. But, I thought you asked, "is it proper for us, to pray prayers like the Imprecatory Psalms against Christ's enemies or the enemies of the Church."

My reply was based on this question, alone. After reading your reply, I still stand by what I said. I have been convinced by the Fathers (and some modern writers) that the Christological approach to the O.T. is the truest and most authentic one. Therefore, this is the way I still approach the question of the Imprecatory Psalms. Plus, I believe it is the authentic Tradition of the Church to pray for mercy for sinners, not their destruction as even Christ manifested during His Agony on the Cross. Sorry my reply was unhelpful.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Keeping in mind that this is inspired writing and the Word of God, why, in pre-Christian times, did God allow the Jews to pray for the destruction of their earthly enemies?

ChristTeen287

Dear Teen:

God helps us to develop and to move along at a pace consistent with our development. This is why He sent Jesus at a particular time in history. God has a plan, and we don't know all of it, just what has been revealed. Jesus tells us: We are called to be more than what the Jews were called to be -- for we are the adopted sons and daughters of God!

Edward, deacon and sinner