www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Internet Carmelite Community

Dear Abbot Michael,

Just wanted to share that there is an Orthodox icon of Our Lady of Mt Carmel that is venerated as miraculous!

This is in the town of Horodyshchenske in Ukraine and the icon is actually call "Shkaplirna" or "of the Scapular!"

Alex

Dear Alex ICCBF
Thanks for mentioning the Orthodox Icon. I did a simple Google and found a facinating article I think all member souls and our friends who are watching us carefully will prifit from. Just cut and paste the URL.

It couldn't make the point we have been trying to make any more clearly if one of us had written it.

[URL=http://unicorne.org/orthodoxy/hiver2004/prayer.htm][/URL]

There is hope out there!
Pray without ceasing...Michael ICCBF

Dear Abbot Michael,

Actually, I DID write that article!

Alex

Dear Alex,
Or should I call you Professor. I'm amazed I didn't make the connection. I am simply.... stunned by you.

Pray without ceasing...Michael

Dear Alex, Michael & all those interested in Carmel and the Eastern Church

I have been a faithful follower of the Byzantine Forum for years and have never posted.

I guess the first thing I should say is Thank You. I have learned much from all of you.

This specific topic is forcing me out of the woodwork. I'm in my late 40's and attended a Carmelite elementary school as a child. I never realized how Carmelite my Catholicism was until my family moved to an area of Upstate NY devoid of Carmelites. In junior and senior High School, I lost interest in church and in my 20's I was no longer practicing. Marriage and family brought me back to the church. One night, over dinner, our parish priest mentioned his visit to an Orthodox Monastery near Utica. On my next business trip in the area, I stopped into Jordanville, got a few books from the bookstore and was amazed at the solid writing and the clarity of guidance offered in these books. I've been back to Jordanville more times than I can recall and have always been treated with kindness and friendly advise by the monks. For a while I thought of becoming Orthodox but my wife and I had one of those heart to heart talks about not being able to receive communion together and I backed off that ledge. Although my wife and daughters do not share my love of the Eastern Church, I am still fed spiritually in the East. For the longest time, I thought of this as my mid life crisis. Then one day, I realized that my appreciation for the Eastern Church was a logical response brought on by my Carmelite background. Carmel and the Eastern Church share the same spiritual outlook.

But the question is ..."So what?" What do you do with this insight?

The things I love about the RC church are not emphasized by the suburban parishes I'm familiar with. I've visited a Carmelite third order meeting & I think most of the people in that small group were old enough to have personally known Elijah. At least locally, it is not a 'happening' community. I'm always talking up the wonderful Ukrainian Catholic Church in our area to RC friends. People are starting to avoid me.

How do you get RC's interested in the Latin version of the Eastern way (Carmel) let alone in Eastern Catholic/Orthodoxy? I would LOVE spiritual outreach programs to be offered by EC's for RC's at local levels. Jesuits and Franciscans have their Spiritual Exercises and retreats. EC's have SO MUCH to offer! I'll just keep telling people to come to this web site.

I know this post is a ramble but where else besides Byzantine Forum could Carmel and the Eastern Church be linked ... Thanks

Kevin

Dear Kevin,
I thank you for your post and for the heartfelt longing you express, present in more souls than you may know, for the nurishment that can only be provided by our brothers and sisters of the Eastern Churches.

Rest assured, you are not alone. This is one of the main reasons for the Byzantine Forum (IMHO, I do not speak for the BF) it is an outstanding source of information and advice that we souls in the RC (and others) need for our complete grasp of the path to finding and kissing the Face of God in prayer, and sharing that experience with other searching souls.

Although I have been a Third Order member for over thirty years I know that the negative experience you had is all too normal. That fault must be placed squarely on the shoulders of Orders that make it almost impossible for the large majority of souls who feel called to the particular charism of any particular Order to answer his or her Call.

This why I am convince that the Byzantine Forum granting permission for the establishment of the Internet Carmelite Community on the BF in a direct intervention by Our Lady of Mt. Carmel and the Holy, Mighty and Imortal One, to spread devotion to Her by means of RC, Eastern (and Orthodox) spirituality. We, here, are one.

By all means spread the word to all the souls with whom you come into contact. ABOVE ALL PRAY, PRAY, PRAY FOR THE INITIATIVE TO ANSWER YOUR CALL AND FOR THE SUCCESS OF THE ICCBF.

I am here as are the rest of us to help and answer. Above all, pray without ceasing...Michael ICCBF

I haven't as yet had the time to go back and read all the posts on this rather long thread. Perhaps you have covered my question already, but if so, it must be buried in the thread somewhere, so I will take the chance of repeating a question you may have already answered.

Is there a proposed Rule for this ICC? Or is this an informal alliance of Byzantine/Carmelite souls who love this spiritual heritage?

I am aware of two Carmelite orders for tertiaries (there may be others): the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, which is undoubtedly the more structured of the two, and the third Order of our Lady of Mt. Carmel, which commonly uses the LOBVM and the Rosary, I believe. The Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites includes in their Rule 30 minutes of mental prayer, Liturgy of the Hours, and intense study of St Teresa, John of the Cross, the Little Flower, etc. among other things.

What type of "Rule" will the ICC follow? I too have Byzantine and Carmelite interests/callings. Under what provincial is this group organized? Or are you beginning a new group?

Thanks for your answers spelled out formally, as I love the Eastern Church and the Spirit of Elijah! Peace in Christ, Tammy

It comes to mind, after I posted just now, that our late holy father, Pope JPII, shared the same inclinations that you bring up here, a deep love for the East, and he was himself a tertiary of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, hence his contemplative spirit. It is the path to union with God on this earth for those who are called. Praying for your intentions, Tammy

Dear Tammy,
I have tried to post to you five times and my post has been deleted everytime I am about to post. Something I'm doing wrong but I don't know what.

I hope this gets to you atleast. There are 6 basic mandates for membership in the Internet Carmelite Community.

1)A souls MUST Love and respect the Theotokos, Our Lady Of Mt. Carmel.

2)A soul MUST offer some Marian prayer daily.

3)At soul MUST practice at LEAST 15 to 30 of mental prayer a day; not including liturgical prayer , vocal prayer or the Jesus Prayer.

4) A soul MUST make special offerings/sacrifices on the eve of the Solemnity of Our Lady Of Mt. Carmel, St. Elija (ELIAS), and the feast Of St. Albert of Jerusalem, the Law Giver.

5)A soul MUST pray daily for all Carmelites especially members of the ICC.

6) A soul MUST wear the Brown Scapular or the Scapular Medal.

I'm posting this much.
Pray without ceasing....Michael

Dear Tammy,
Well, that one got to you. Now...You ask:

"What type of "Rule" will the ICC follow? I too have Byzantine and Carmelite interests/callings. Under what provincial is this group organized? Or are you beginning a new group?"

Our Rule is the same as all Carmelite Rules. It is based on "The Rule of St. Albert of Jerusalem and dates to the 13th century. Of course it is mitigated to conform to one's state of life.

I wish I could be sure the rather lengthy explanation I wrote would reappear, but just let me say this. Community is a state of commitment and prayer for a common goal, not physical proximity. Alex, James and myself have commited publically and privately to all and, more importantly to Our Lady Of Mt. Carmel and the Holy, Might, and Imortal One our intentions to BE a community of Carmelites. We have no Provincial unless on offers assistance. Fr. Elias a moderator on the BZ is our unofficial overseer. I have been a Professed Third Order isolate for over 30 years and for several of those years was a Master of Formation.

Pray without ceasing....Michael

N.B. Sorry for my ignorance on the mechanics of the BF. Ask any questions you have an I'll try to be more effective.

Dea Tammy,

Greetings in Carmel,
My third letterette:

You ask:
"Is there a proposed Rule for this ICC? Or is this an informal alliance of Byzantine/Carmelite souls who love this spiritual heritage?"

First, I would ask you to define "informal community". I have had occasion to meet with may Carmelites over the years. Some I see only every few years but our "community" is still intact because we exist for a single purpose. The ICC is a community because we are a number of souls united for an express purpose. I prefer not to give personal examples because I don't want to be uncharitable to anyone. Let me just say that for several years now, when I have been approached by souls who feel the Call to Carmel, I have written to the Provincials and Provincial Delegates of both O. Carm and OCD asking for permission to place these aspirants in "Formation" with the hope of evential "Profession" into Carmel. Remember now, I was a Master of Formation in the "old days" before the watering down of the Lay Rule occured. In each and every case permission was denied because, and I para-phrase only slightly, "Unless you can assure us of at least ten or twelve interested people, it probably is worth the time and effort."

I ask, how many souls must be on the scale to make the effort worth it? Jesus tell us, "Wherever two or three are gathered, I am in their midst." Unless a Provincial is involved. Our intention here is to stop the, "My Order is better that your Order", or "Mary is the Mother of God not the Theotokos", or "Oh No, you must touch the left shoulder first and you must use your index finger."

I can give you copies of the promises, vows, pledges that Carmelites take when they promise themselves to the Carmelite way of life (actually fairly close to Baptismal promises) if you wish. I caution all things must conform to your state of life and no soul should bind herself under pain of sin without speaking with her confessor. In the seventies, when I was Professed you promised for life, but shorter Promises are permitted. Perhaps I am a throw back, I don't know and I don't dwell on it.

This I can state without qualification: To me a Promise to the Holy, Mighty and Imortal One and to the Glorious Theotokos is as binding as any vow because it is my word, upon my honor. In the final analasis that is all we have.

I have tried to answer all your questions but if you have others or if I have not been clear please ask. I apologize for the need for several posts but I am not a "techy" as you have no doubt already figured out.

Pray without ceasing...Michael ICCBF

To All:
My typing is poor and my spelling worse. Please forgive.

Pray without ceasing...MIchael ICCBF

Dear Kevin,
After re-reading your original post I have a small addition to the answer I sent ealier.

Why would you feel the neccesity to alter the beauty of the "East" in the first place?

The whole point is that there is much beauty and worth in the "Eastern Way" by itself. Why Latinize it at all? We have much good in the "West". There is much good in the "East".

Much good plus much good can equal excellence. Souls should always be willing to learn more ways of pleasing the Holy, Mighty and Imortal One without the reflex action of the "home turf" syndrome.
Pray without ceasing...Michael ICCBF

Greetings to all souls Called to Carmel,
I want to elimate any confusion on the paucity of the essential points I suggested a soul must be faithful to in order to become a member of the ICC. My intention is not to discourage souls who for economic reasons (one might not be prepared to buy a Psalter, etc.) or family obligations, or differences of tradition might feel excluded.

I quote from Chapter 24 of the Rule St. Albert gave to our holy hermits on Mt. Carmel.

"Here then are a few points I have written down to provide you with a standard of conduct to live up to; but our Lord, at His second coming, will reward anyone who does more that he is obliged to do. See that the bounds of commom sense are not exceeded, however, for commom sense is the guide of the virtues."

Pray without ceasing...Michaerl ICCBF

Dear Friends,

We refer here to "Mount Carmel."

Let us reflect on the symbolism of mountains in salvation history.

What do mountains represent in our spiritual life?

What has happened on mountains in the Old and New Testaments that relate to our spiritual ascent to God?

May we speak about a "spirituality of the Holy Mountain?"

How can we experience the spirituality of the Holy Mountain in our life today?

For me, a "Mountain" is a type of struggle to go above the mundane busyness of our daily lives in order to commune with God in silence and stillness and in the awe of Him Who is above all.

We can experience Transfiguration only on such a mountain, see visions, hear the Voice of God "This is my Beloved Son." We also hope to hear "These are my beloved sons and daughters."

Alex

Alex