www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology suggestions for byzantine catholic churches

Glory to the Risen Lord!!!!!


I was raised RC; my father, however, was a Ukranian Catholic when he was growing up. After marrying and moving to a city where BC churches were scarce, there wasn't much of a choice but to raise me RC. Over the past year, I have really felt the Lord tugging at me to embrace my Byzantine heritage. And recently, my wife, strictly RC with no BC background, and I have sporadically attended Divine Liturgy at St. Stephen's Pro-Cathedral in Phoenix. She is beginning to love it! However, it seems inevitable that when RC's begin to attend BC parishes they notice a problem as soon as they read the bulletin: NO MINISTRY OPPORTUNITIES!.

My wife looked at me in the car after leaving St. Stephen's this past Sunday and asked: "If I became a Byzantine Catholic, what would I do here? There would be nothing to do except make perohi a few times a year." This is a woman who was a past president of the St. Vincent de Paul conference at our parish, a lector, president of the women's sodality group, and currently, a Eucharistic Minister to the elderly at nursing homes.

The first problem is obvious: an RC would have to relinquish his/her ministries.

The second problem: there was no kind of Bible Study available or being offered. Here is where I would have a problem. Being a graduate of a Diocesan run theology school in Biblical Studies, where would I now go to receive training/certification in Byzantine theology and bible studies? And being laity, is it even permissible?

Problem number three:

Since Vatican II, RC's have learned to focus more on the spiritual aspects of liturgical worship instead of just worrying about knowing when to stand, sit, kneel, and "mouthing" responses. I noticed that I had a hard time concentrating on responses because I did not know the Tone(s). Would it be the unpardonable sin if the whole Divind Liturgy was NOT sung? It is indeed beeyootifull! Do not misunderstand what I am saying. If the BC churches are going to attract RC members, the RC's are going to have to feel like they are a part of the liturgy. If you do not know the Tones, you will spend much of the time trying to figure out where this melody is going, and it will be distracting to someone new who is trying to worship in "spirit and truth" as scripture commands. I noticed that there weren't many people singing other than the "two-person" choir.

Would it be wrong to suggest perhaps cutting the singing in half? One, it is easier for someone new to concentrate prayerfully on the response, and two, this would force more people to participate and be a part of the litury. One thing all Catholics have in common: if there is a choir singing, why should I?

I make these suggestions in love. I know because of my father's Byzantine heritage I am a Byzantine, despite being raised RC. And I know I will claim those full privileges one day, and possibly my wife will convert too. But how much will we have to lose ministry-wise? Is there any chance for laity involvement in the future? Are there colleges / internet classes where one could get degreed or certified? What about secular orders?

If you know answers to these questions help! I do wish to embrace the BC church but I must admit I am a little fearful. What will I be able to do there?

Walter Metrick

Dear Walter,
Lay women and men can chant the epistle during the Divine Liturgy, so that might be a possibility to put your Lector skills to an advantage. I actually like chanting the epistles rather than just saying them.
While there are probably some Eastern Catholic parishes that use lay Eucharistic Ministers, that is not an Eastern thing, and hopefully will go the way of other Latinisms...basically, most parish ministries in the Roman Church probably have a Byzantine counterpart, but there are a few things that the East does differently.

As for the tones...yes, they can be hard, but once you get the hang of them, you'll never look back! One piece of advice: try attending other Eastern Parishes-that will give you some good exposure to how traditions do things.

May God Bless You on Your Journey!

Michael King

Walter,

Yes, it would be a sin to recite the liturgy! An oral tradition would be lost in the process. The music of the Divine Liturgy is the music of our ancestors, our history.
If RCs wish to attend a BC liturgy then they should respect our tradition of a sung liturgy. I don't go to a RC church and ask them to chant the Mass.
I have been to Liturgies where the entire congregation sings, and to liturgies where I am the only one singing. True,when choirs sing, generally, the congegration doesn't sing because they don't know the music. However a 'two person choir'is not a choir and the congregation should be encouraged to join in.
One of the issues facing the BCC is getting more/any music into the pews.
I felt I had to respond to your post since I have sung in the church choir,(when we had one decades ago), and am currently a cantor, who sometimes also reads the epistle, and gets frustrated by not hearing the congregation singing with me.
Personally I feel that part of the cantor's duty is to sing well and pass the music on orally to the next generation.
Cutting the singing in half is only one step closer to losing the singing altogether in my view. I'd rather encourage everyone to sing. Can't sing on key? Not a problem. Sing anyway. Have a good voice, then help out!

Steve Petach

And there is the rub. Walter, if you and your wife prefer St. Stephen's go there. If not, don't. No church has a mission to adapt itself to attract members of another church. In fact, the desire for this is the source of many problems for us.

K.

Dear Walter,

Yes, the questions you pose are ones I have come across with others before.

For me, and I can only speak from personal experience, this is how the Byzantine spiritual experience responds to the needs you outline.

In terms of ministry opportunities, the development of lay ministries in the RC church came about largely, and I don't mean to be unkind, but largely due to the priest shortage and also to the movement to activate the laity more.

The Byzantine Liturgy is totally different from the Roman one, before and after Vatican II, however.

For example, when the priest sings "Let us stand to offer TOGETHER the Holy sacrifice" this is not just poetry. He is tactily recognizing the Priesthood of the Laity and our duty to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy with him.

The Laity in our Church have always been "activated" with the responses, the constant signing with the Sign of the Cross, the various other ways in which we involve ourselves in the Liturgy.

For those who wish to sing or to participate in other ways, one need only see the parish priest to see what is available.

Many parishes have various church groups or brotherhoods and sisterhoods that perform charitable and other good works.

I don't know about the parish you name, but in mine I don't have time to think about ministries, between the soup kitchen and helping to organize a pilgrimage to the Zhirovits Mother of God.

The pilgrimage this year was so beautiful and moving and we attracted so many people from outside the parish - this kind of ministry more than overwhelms me.

Bible study groups are easy enough to set up and there are correspondence and other courses that one may take, such as at the Sheptytsky institute in Ottawa for one.

As for singing, I was never good at that. Perhaps you might want to develop your own Metrick Tones (sorry, sorry!).

I find that when the singing starts, I start to hum to myself and before long I have my mouth wide open (I know you may find that hard to believe)and bellowing out the notes.

I don't know whether I'm in tune or not.

All I know is that God takes my little, insignificant effort and transforms it Himself into a fitting tribute to His Glory.

The singing aspect of our Church's life is something that requires work to maintain and allow it to flourish.

But I leave it to those who have singing voices and who are not beyond hope in this department, as I am.

The East is more mystical than the activity-oriented West.

Both belong in the Garden of the Lord. So pick your flowers wisely!

Alex

As a Roman Catholic I have had NO problems singing the Liturgy! In fact I find it much more spiritually experience. Personnaly I believe the problem is with the Roman Catholic Church, but that is another topic.

I don't believe the Byzantine Catholic Church wants to "attract" Roman Catholics. Rather, the Byzantine Catholic Churches want to "attract" the un-churched such as Atheist, Pagans, and non-christians.

aRomanCatholicGuy

Dear aRomanCatholicGuy,

You're my kind of guy, in any event!

I've always loved the RC mass when it is sung. I was at Chartres a few weeks ago and the Bishop was there during a sung Pontifical Mass - what beauty, what glory!

As for attracting Pagans, I think we have a few of these in our parish already . . .

We also have Roman Catholics, and a growing number of them.

It's bad enough that they set a better example in Church, but now they are learning the Liturgy in Ukrainian and eat more perogies than we cradle Ukes do.

I think I'm beginning to understand Pharaoh at the time of Moses . . . kidding, kidding . . .

Alex

Walter,

Thanks for the post.

It is my hope that someday the Latin Church will return to its tradition of singing the entire Mass.

If you need help with the tones, there are many resources to help you learn. check out www.byzcath.org/chant for one. ask the cantor at that parish or the priest for the basic music.

As for your wife and you wanting to help-- if there is no such ministry, you are more than welcome to start one! we need help and sometimes no one steps up to do it--so if you see a need, ask the priest if you can help!

in Christ,

anastasios

Good Morning!
You might want to try the Byzantine counterpart of the Latin Altar Society.They keep the vestments and linens clean and spotless, or you would probably be most welcomed if you wanted to help clean the church,landscaping,stocking and organizing the food pantry for the outreach ministry,helping in the library,visiting the sick,elderly and infirmed of the parish, volunteering for the monthly coffee socials.As far as the 2 people in the "choir" , they probably will be happy to help you learn the tones and then you will be able to help them lead the congregation in chanting the Liturgy and other liturgical services.Maybe you have some new and exciting fundraising ideas. I don't think that the lay ministries in the Byzantine church are organized as they are in the Latin church.You just see where you can help, roll up your sleeves and dig.Welcome to the Byzantine Church, I hope that you find it as spirtually enlightening and rewarding as I have.

Walter,

Welcome Home!

To address your problems:

Ministry. Since ministry exists in various forms this question is difficult. As stated men and women can cantor and/or lector. Men can serve at the altar as acolytes. Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist is probably not very likely. While technincally allowed by our current particular law, the restrictions are very tight. There would need to be a very great need (over 150 communicants or a priest with a disability) and no deacon, subdeacon or lector available to assist the priest, and the priest would have to allow it, which many probably will not. In a liturgical situation it would need to be a man, women are not permitted in the altar. Although, visits to the sick maybe a possibility if there is need.

Lay Cathechists are always welcome (and needed) but a familiarity with Byzantine theology will probably be required. I suggest any or all of the following titles from God With Us Publications, the publishing arm of the Eastern Catholic Diocesan Directors of Religous Education:

Light for Life Part: One-The Mystery Believed $10
Light for Life Part:Two-The Mystery Celebrated $10

The following books also have available a facilitator's guide for a six session course $4
With Eyes Of Faith:An Introduction to Eastern Theology $7
A Stream Of Living Water:An Introduction to Holy Tradition $7
Shown To Be Holy:An Introduction to Eastern Moral Thought $7
Life And Worship:An Introduction to Eastern Liturgy $7
Discerning Your Call:An Introduction to the Cathechist Formation Program $7
To The Ends Of The Earth:Aspects of Eastern Church History $7
The Old Testament:A Byzantine Prospective $10
The Face Of God:Essays in Byzantine Spirituality $10
The above can be orderd at 1-877-484-1600
The Eparchies often offer courses using these books and this is usually how one becomes a catechist. However, someone with advanced training may need only to read the books and go over them with a priest or deacon.

As for other ministries I am sure you will be welcomed to participate, especially at pirogi pinching! Talk with the pastor or my brother deacon candidate John. He will be the very tall gentleman with a goatee serving or reading the Epistle.

As for singing, we don't have choirs but cantors, and it looks like St. Stephen's is blessed to have two. And no, it would not be proper to cut the music in half. Until you learn the tones it is fine to sit and listen as the propers of the day are sung.

As for degrees only the Sheptytsky Institue http://137.122.12.4/sheptytsky/, the University of Scranton http://www.cecs.uofs.edu/, and the Pontifical Oriental Institute offer Eastern Christian studies and degrees. The Sheptitsky Institute is willing to offer distance courses in a limited setting.

As for Third Orders there is a Byzantine Branch of the Secular Fransican Order. they have a website here:www.byzantinefranciscans.org/
The Byzantine Carmelites also probaly have a Secular Order but I don't have any info other than the website for their monastery: http://nyssa.cecs.uofs.edu/carmelite.html

Hope this helps.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]

Welcome Walter!

I used to be a member of St Thomas Byzantine Catholic parish in Gilbert and would often attend St Stephen in Phoenix. My suggestion: if you are being led to be a part of a Byzantine parish make an appointment to talk to the priest and then present your thoughts about ministry. I think Fr Stephen or Fr Phil would be ecstatic to find out about your backgrounds and your desire to share them in the parish. I know that St Thomas publishes a listing of ministries and who does what and there is always more that can be done. The Byzantine parishes are smaller and greatly need talented people who can minister.

Liturgically the Liturgy is always sung. My experience is that most people who first experience the Liturgy are enchanted by the chanted Liturgy. I know at St Thomas there is a high level of congregational participation in the singing of the Liturgy.

It is true that the purpose of the Byzantine Church is not to reach Roman Rite faithful. However, I think your point was not that we exist to "sheep steal" but that many R C's do find an attraction to the Eastern Church--I know that was my experience. Unfortunately, some are less welcoming to Roman Rite faithful. The parishes in Arizona are very much welcoming--they could not survive as ethnic parishes.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Walter;

Welcome to the world of Byzantine Christianity. You have inadvertently swerved into a couple of the very foundations of Byzantine theology. First of all, in true Byzantine tradition, we are called to communion via participation. Often times this calling is "positive" such as the sense of "awe" that is palpable in an Eastern church. Often times the calling is "negative." There is a sense of irritation or something is not right or imperfect. Take for example, iconography. To the uninitiated, these "pictures" are disorienting, imperfect, imprecise, and, in a word, irritating. But it is the very irritation that draws one in if one so allows. We may be "haunted" by the iconic experience as we struggle to understand some hidden meaning. The same is true of our liturgy. The troparia that you struggle to understand are intimately linked with the other liturgies, of the week and with the Divine Office. They provide a link, a unity to our worship, which is otherwise disjointed by the very dimension of time. Your irritation could draw you into the very center of worship if you follow its lead.

Secondly, the Eastern churches have a very different understanding of "ministry." All of the laity are partakers in the royal priesthood of Christ. All are called to the service of the community. We do not tend to develop defined ministries (although I must admit that the influence of the Western Churches, both Protestant and Catholic, has crept into the American Eastern churches, Orthodox, Catholic, and others, as well). The service of the church always revolves around the pastor, who shepherds the community. This leadership is not only sacramentally symbolic but also symbolically real. In a sense we see the church community as a wheel that revolves around the pastor, priest, shepherd. We tend not to see it as a tree, for example, with the pastor as the trunk, others as main branches with still others as smaller branches, and so on. Each of us sacrifices our selves and our pride to the community. The pastor similarly sacrifices himself. He leads not for himself but for the community. He leads not in his image, but in the image of Christ. This does not downplay the role of the laity but places it properly. For it is only when the community acts together in accord with their pastor that they are symbolically church, that they are in reality church.

With love in Christ;

(Fr. Dcn) John

Lance wrote:

As for singing, we don't have choirs but cantors, and it looks like St. Stephen's is blessed to have two. And no, it would not be proper to cut the music in half. Until you learn the tones it is fine to sit and listen as the propers of the day are sung.

With due respect, we do have choirs. My parish has a fine choir. We sing most all services and have learned some fine music. We sing ALOT of prostopinije that has been arranged for 4 parts by one of our cantors, who is very gifted musically and has a wonderful appreciation for Carpatho-Rusyn chant. We've added much to our repetoire thanks to J. Michael Thompson at the Seminary and all his fine arrangements of the chant for choir. We do sing some "composer" pieces, but they tend to be easy and singable anyway. We also have done some work with the "Russian" tones and some Greek chant as well. Our people sing along with us, and they complain when we're not singing.

We also reach out into the community. We'll be featured, singing OUR music at the annual ecumenical Thanksgiving service in New Britain next week and also for the Hartford area World AIDS Day service on December. We become ambassadors for our parish and our Church. Not to mention our visits to convalescent homes and our own shut-ins on holidays.

Take care. John.
http://www.byzantines.net/HolyTrinity/

Any time I am at Liturgy and I don't know the words to what is being sung (at St. Joseph Ukrainian Catholic Church in St. Joseph, MO EVERYONE SINGS!) I just hum along the best I can. It makes me feel like I am adding some little something to the Liturgy and I think God understands.

Don

John K,

I guess I should have clarified my statement. My main intent was to inform Walter that the two people singing were not a choir but were cantors. I would also add that yes some parishes do have choirs as does each eparchy. However, this is not the tradition of the Ruthenian Church and I would not like to see this introduced into any more parishes, the quality of existing choirs not with standing. The introduction of Russian or Kievan choral friendly ends up resulting in poor congregational participation as the pieces are often foreign to Rusyn ears and are often complicated to execute even for a choir. I've been to too many Greek and Russian Orthodox liturgies dominated by a choir where the congregation doesn't sing a note.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate