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#82763 03/13/02 01:03 PM
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I know this is a TOUGH topic and I hope this forum can handle it respectively. I came accross this article:

http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=1&art_id=12597

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The key word is "one." One priest had been accused of assaulting a prepubescent child. The other allegations involved priests and sexually mature, but under-age, adolescents � mostly boys.

"Those Chicago numbers are not unusual. This is, in fact, part of a pattern we see in diocese after diocese," said Father Donald B. Cozzens, former vicar for clergy in Cleveland and then rector of a graduate seminary in Ohio.

"Of course, any abuse of children is horrifying and it is just as wrong � morally and legally � when sexual abuse occurs with teenagers. But it isn't helping matters, right now, for people to keep blurring the lines between these two conditions. This isn't just about pedophilia."

Debates about sexuality and the priesthood will only heat up, if that is possible, now that a crucial Vatican voice has spoken. A close aide to Pope John Paul II told The New York Times that it's time to slow or even stop the flow of gays into the priesthood. "People with these inclinations just cannot be ordained," said psychiatrist Joaquin Navarro-Valls.

Cozzens stressed that he agrees with researchers who believe sexual orientation is irrelevant in discussions of pedophilia. But what if pedophilia is not the issue?

By definition, pedophiles are sexually attracted to boys and girls who have not reached puberty. But Cozzens said reports he has studied, and his own experience as a counselor, indicate the more common problem among Catholic clergy is "ephebophilia." This is recurrent, intense sexual interest in post-pubescent young people � teenagers.

The term "ephebophilia" is rarely used in church debates and the press. Yet, Cozzens said that whenever clergy vicars held conferences 90 percent of the sex-abuse cases they discussed fell into this category. Yet church authorities are reluctant to investigate this reality.

Why this conspicuous silence?

"Perhaps it is feared that it will call attention to the disproportionate number of gay priests," wrote Cozzens, in his influential "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," published in 2000. "While homosexually oriented people are no more likely to be drawn to misconduct with minors than straight people, our own experiences was clear and, I believe, significant. Most priest offenders, we vicars agreed, acted out against teenage boys."

In his most controversial chapter, Cozzens quotes reports claiming about 50 percent of U.S. Catholic priests are gay, with the numbers higher among priests younger than 40. Talk of a "gay subculture" grew in recent decades as 20,000 men left the priesthood to get married.

The seminary climate changed - radically. Cozzens cited a survey in which 60 percent of one seminary's students identified themselves as gay, 20 percent were "confused about their sexual identity" and 20 percent said they were heterosexual.

Cozzens concluded: "Should our seminaries become significantly gay, and many seasoned observers find them to be precisely that, the priesthood of the 21st century will likely be perceived as a predominantly gay profession."

This is the proverbial elephant in the sanctuary that few bishops want to discuss.

Cozzens said that, along with many other researchers, he does not see a direct link between homosexual orientation and sexual abuse. Yet the cloud of secrecy and denial that swirls around the gay subculture makes it hard to discuss urgent issues � such as ephebophilia.

"Pedophilia is a totally different kind of sickness and it can't really be treated," he said. "You simply have to do what you can to help the abuser and then make sure all future contact with children is cut off. There is no other way. ...

"But there are many bishops out there who, for a variety of reasons, have been convinced that priests can be successfully treated and reassigned to other parishes if the sexual contact was with teenagers. Now, that belief is being shaken."

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Dear +Ray,

I don't know if we really need to look at this issue again.

I don't trust the social statistical procedures of journalists with BA's in English, if that.

Why doesn't the press ever report the really good things celibate priests do, their sacrifices and hard work in the Vineyard of Christ?

Alex

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No.

Most priests are not homosexual, or pedophiles. Some, A VERY FEW are one or the other or both, and the results of their actions have been tragic, and have been poorly handled by the Church for years. But MOSt priests, the overwhelming majority of priests are celibate heterosexual men trying to lead holy lives. Of course that doesn't make the headlines.....


Sheesh.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
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sharon@cmhc.com

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Alex,

I respect your position but I think I might agree that a large percentage of priest are homosexuals. Now that does not mean they are ACTIVE homosexuals.

Now I don't want this topic to degrade into something not Christian but I think it is worthy of discussion.

FYI, the articles author:
Quote
(Terry Mattingly is a senior fellow for journalism at the Council For Christian Colleges and Universities and a member of Holy Cross Orthodox Church in Linthicum, MD. He writes a weekly column for the Scripps Howard News Service.)

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God, I hope not.

Sharon and Alex are right. The problems that we hear more and more about now are frightful, but in all fairness to the priesthood, this doesn't seem to be the problem of the majority of priests, but of the few who then manage to get themselves on TV, because the media loves this stuff. Unfortunately, it's influencing how people view the priesthood, and in that sense, this might deter vocations, and those who aren't deterred will probably find their ministry that much more difficult.

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I can't help but think that there was never a more opportune moment to restore the married priesthood in the Byzantine Churches.

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Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

I agree, but I think that there is some sort of smear campaign going on against celibate priests and I don't like it.

When I was in Catholic high school (Latin Church, of course smile ), and said I wanted to a priest, everyone, except for my friends, thought of me as being homosexual and told me that to my face.

(It was a much worse experience than having OneHoly use the term "crap" in reference to my person yesterday smile I would have preferred "Crap" to "Fag.")

Even when I told them my Eastern Catholic bishop PROMISED to look after the matter of my being a married priest, they didn't pay attention. (My bishop said, "You worry about studying, Alex, and I'll worry about everything else, including your presbytera . . .").

That was hurtful, and if I am ever critical of Catholic education, it was largely due to similar experiences.

The only thing that was truly "Catholic" about that high school was the Crucifixes in the classrooms.

Alex

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

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Mor E.

I am not stating that the problems we are facing today is the result of Homosexual priest! In fact statistics suggest that Ped. are more likely to come from Heterosexual men than Gay men.

What I am suggesting is that many men may feel that it is a blessing from God that they are not called to be a part of the Nuclear family and they find Fulfillment in the Priesthood.


Not to get off the subject too much I had a college professor from Berkeley who had many friends in Hollywood. He told me that most of Hollywood was run by Homosexuals. Now I know this might sound like a stereotype but I assure that my professor assured me that it was pretty much a given. So where is this leading? Well, as we know Hollywood is considered an Artistic Industry and on the edge of Cultural Norms. In addition, most people would agree that the Media is quite liberal because a lot of the media comes from artistic background. Now I could go on and on about the connection between Homosexuality and the Artistic influences they have in our modern culture. The correlation that I am suggestion here is that in my opinion Homosexuals tend to be more Artistic and �Free Thinkers� in society today. In addition, I think we can all agree that they are liberal even to an Extreme.

Think about post Vatican II. Think about the RCC document on the Environment and Church Architecture. Consider the new trends in Church Architecture and the radical departure of traditional Church norms. Now look at the �fringe groups� of the priesthood today. Doesn�t these �fringe groups� tend to support the new changes within the Church. Aren�t these Changes very liberal? I wish I could develop this further but I am at work. Maybe tonight I will help build this case. Finally, don�t you see the connection with a �Homosexual Culture� element inside the Church today?

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

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Dear +Ray,

Well, no, actually.

I also think your professor is anti-Semitic as well as being Homophobic. It doesn't speak well to his academic credentials nor to his credentials as a human being.

And, frankly,I think the greatest blow against terrorism was struck by the words of Ellen Degeneris when she told all Americans to get on with their lives in the aftermath of the 911 tragedy.

"That will hurt the terrorists more than the picture of a woman in pants surrounded by Jews."

For me, that is "Churchillian" in terms of its impact.

As for homosexuality, it is something we know very little about.

Yet, we have had homosexual Church leaders and saints, who have talked openly about their homosexual orientations while remaining celibate.

The Caesars practiced homosexuality as heterosexuals, something to mark them off from the common people, and the scriptures certainly condemns this.

Can a homosexual become a Priest or a Monk? Or course!

The idea that somehow homosexuality is linked to child abuse or pedophilia is sheer nonsense.

Heterosexuals are more than likely to be pedophiliacs and engage in all manner of sexual deviancy.

There are books written about this, responsible and scholarly, by theologians and, as Anastasios/Dustin would say, we need to read them.

Otherwise, this is beginning to sound like the childish rantings of students in a sociology 101 class.

At this time, I would ask the Moderator to review this thread and share with us his own perspective on its continued legitimacy on the Forum.

Alex

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

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Let me clarify something the above opinion is not neccasary my opinion. It was just a thought I had and I was trying to logically think it out. Rather, a theory if you want...

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Dear +Ray,

I understand where you're coming from.

But I've asked the Moderator to review this as it involves a tacit assumption about the Priesthood and the Church that I don't believe is appropriate for this Forum.

I won't post anything further here until the Moderator has had a chance to review it.

I think that's only fair and I will abide by the Moderator's decision.

Alex

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Originally posted by Sharon Mech:
No.

Most priests are not homosexual, or pedophiles. Some, A VERY FEW are one or the other or both, and the results of their actions have been tragic, and have been poorly handled by the Church for years. But MOSt priests, the overwhelming majority of priests are celibate heterosexual men trying to lead holy lives. Of course that doesn't make the headlines.....


Sheesh.

Sharon

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Sharon in no way am I trying to be hard on you, but how do you know what the majority of Priest are? But I do agree with you that the majority of Priest are heterosexual - even if that majority would come out to a percentage point of 51% to 49%.

However I, trying to be honest with myself, have come to accept RomanCatholic@Work position on this. Infact a Priest I knew as a child has admited already sometime ago of molesting a little boy. A Priest at my highschool was known to be found of highschool boys, infact two Priest at my cousins highschool were known to have been quite fond of highschool boys. I know a Priest that is homosexual, well let me say I can't say that for fact, but I'm older and wiser and my good instincts tell me so. But he is a good Priest and so what would I care if he is gay. Infact gay Priest that are active with adult males are preferable to heterosexual Priests that are active with adult women. One can produce children the other can't.

I've already written some of my suggestions to some with authority in the Church. I doubt they'll be taken seriously. And I'm sure as long as catholic laity will bury their heads in the sand the Church higher ups will go on with buisness as normal and just court the wealthy and powerful when another tragedy occurrs and is broadcast for the world to see.

But I like my brother, and so many others, am looking to the virtue of Buddhism over that of the tribal conflicts, scandals, and intellectual and financial arrogance of the Christian world. If Christ is true, I will have to stay in the Church, but that doesn't mean I have to remain in the "community". The Buddhist I'm sure of this respects the human, and I personal prefer to be in that kind of community of "honor" then what I see inside of Christianity.

flame away.

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Dear Maximus,

The point is that pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate things.

Many pedophiliacs are actually married and have heterosexual lives etc.

We tend to blame celibacy and other things on priests.

We have had sports coaches charged with pedophilia here as well as other, married ministers of Protestant churches.

And +Ray is going beyond this in opening this thread.

I don't accept the simplistic psychology underlying this, if you two agree, I would say you've bought into the media propaganda against the Church on this as well.

I call on the Moderator to review this and determine the legitimacy of this thread continuing.

Alex

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To aRomanCatholic@Work,

I know quite a few homosexual Catholics (not priests) who tend to be more "High Church" than anything esle. They seem more likely to build a Gothic Cathederal with Latin inscriptions than anything modern in style. Although I can appreciate your theory, I think you have it backwards.

Dmitri.

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Another expert weighs in on clerical pedophilia.

Quote
Date: 2002-03-11
"The Myth of the Pedophile Priest"
A Researcher Puts Scandals in Context

PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania, MARCH 11, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Philip Jenkins, a Penn State University professor of history and religious studies, is author of "Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis" (Oxford University Press, 1996). He wrote this article for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, which published it March 3 under the headline "The Myth of the Pedophile Priest."
* *

By Philip Jenkins

Every day, the news media have a new horror story to report, under some sensational headline: Newsweek, typically, is devoting its current front cover to "Sex, Shame and the Catholic Church: 80 Priests Accused of Child Abuse in Boston." Though the sex abuse cases have deep roots, the most recent scandals were detonated by the affair of Boston priest John J. Geoghan.

Though his superiors had known for years of Geoghan�s pedophile activities, he kept being transferred from parish to parish, regardless of the safety of the children in his care. The stigma of the Geoghan affair could last for decades, and some Catholics are declaring in their outrage that they can never trust their church again.

No one can deny that Boston church authorities committed dreadful errors, but at the same time, the story is not quite the simple tale of good and evil that it sometime appears. Hard though it may be to believe right now, the "pedophile priest" scandal is nothing like as sinister as it has been painted -- or at least, it should not be used to launch blanket accusations against the Catholic Church as a whole.

We have often heard the phrase "pedophile priest" in recent weeks. Such individuals can exist: Father Geoghan was one, as was the notorious Father James Porter a decade or so back. But as a description of a social problem, the term is wildly misleading. Crucially, Catholic priests and other clergy have nothing like a monopoly on sexual misconduct with minors.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah�s Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas -- and the list goes on.

One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy.
However much this statement contradicts conventional wisdom, the "pedophile priest" is not a Catholic specialty. Yet when did we ever hear about "pedophile pastors"?

Just to find some solid numbers, how many Catholic clergy are involved in misconduct? We actually have some good information on this issue, since in the early 1990s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago undertook a bold and thorough self-study. The survey examined every priest who had served in the archdiocese over the previous 40 years, some 2,200 individuals, and reopened every internal complaint ever made against these men. The standard of evidence applied was not legal proof that would stand up in a court of law, but just the consensus that a particular charge was probably justified.

By this low standard, the survey found that about 40 priests, about 1.8 percent of the whole, were probably guilty of misconduct with minors at some point in their careers. Put another way, no evidence existed against about 98 percent of parish clergy, the overwhelming majority of the group.

Since other organizations dealing with children have not undertaken such comprehensive studies, we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.

The Chicago study also found that of the 2,200 priests, just one was a pedophile. Now, many people are confused about the distinction between a pedophile and a person guilty of sex with a minor. The difference is very significant. The phrase "pedophile priests" conjures up images of the worst violation of innocence, callous molesters like Father Porter who assault children 7 years old. "Pedophilia" is a psychiatric term meaning sexual interest in children below the age of puberty.

But the vast majority of clergy misconduct cases are nothing like this. The vast majority of instances involve priests who have been sexually active with a person below the age of sexual consent, often 16 or 17 years old, or even older. An act of this sort is wrong on multiple counts: It is probably criminal, and by common consent it is immoral and sinful; yet it does not have the utterly ruthless, exploitative character of child molestation. In almost all cases too, with the older teen-agers, there is an element of consent.

Also, the definition of "childhood" varies enormously between different societies. If an act of this sort occurred in most European countries, it would probably be legal, since the age of consent for boys is usually around 15. To take a specific example, when newspapers review recent cases of "pedophile priests," they commonly cite a case that occurred in California�s Orange County, when a priest was charged with having consensual sex with a 17-year-old boy. Whatever the moral quality of such an act, most of us would not apply the term "child abuse" or "pedophilia."

For this reason alone, we need to be cautious when we read about scores of priests being "accused of child abuse."
The age of the young person involved is also so important because different kinds of sexual misconduct respond differently to treatment, and church authorities need to respond differently. If a diocese knows a man is a pedophile, and ever again places him in a position where he has access to more children, that decision is simply wrong, and probably amounts to criminal neglect. But a priest who has a relationship with an older teen-ager is much more likely to respond to treatment, and it would be more understandable if some day the church placed him in a new parish, under careful supervision.

The fact that Cardinal Law�s regime in Boston seems to have blundered time and again does not mean that this is standard practice for all Catholic dioceses, still less that the church is engaged in some kind of conspiracy of silence to hide dangerous perverts.

I am in no sense soft on the issue of child abuse. Recently, I published an expose of the trade in electronic child pornography, one of the absolute worst forms of exploitation, and my argument was that the police and FBI need to be pressured to act more strictly against this awful thing.

My concern over the "pedophile priest" issue is not to defend evil clergy, or a sinful church (I cannot be called a Catholic apologist, since I am not even a Catholic). But I am worried that justified anger over a few awful cases might be turned into ill-focused attacks against innocent clergy.

The story of clerical misconduct is bad enough without turning into an unjustifiable outbreak of religious bigotry against the Catholic Church.

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