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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Dear Friends,

As a confirmed Roman Catholic, if I were to convert to Holy Orthodoxy would I be re-confirmed? Thanks.

A sinner,

Adam

Dear Adam,

Do you mean "Orthodoxy in communion with Rome," or the other kind?

My Mother Orthodox Church chrismates Roman Catholics who want to join Orthodoxy.

But, interestingly enough, I as a Ukie Catholic would not have to be re-chrismated, I would just have to go to confession and recite the Nicene Creed.

But without the Filioque of course . . .

Alex

Each Orthodox Church handles this somewhat differently. For the most part in the United States someone coming from Roman Catholicism would be chrismated upon entering the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy, for its own part, does not consider this to be a "reconfirmation", because it takes no view as to the efficacy of sacramental actions outside the Orthodox Church. It's interesting to note that the service associated with the reception of converts indicates that the type of chrismation used in this case is different than that for new initiates -- ie, the prayers used are quite different from the prayers used when someone is chrismated immeidately following baptism, and are more orientated towards reconciliation between the person and the church. It's also important to note that an Orthodox who has separated himself from the Orthodox Church (eg, by receiving sacraments outside the Orthodox Church) would normally be reconciled to the Orthodox Church not through confession but through this act of chrismation with the same prayers and rite as are used for the convert to Orthodoxy -- and Orthodoxy certainly does not consider that act to be a repeitition of any kind of the person's original chrismation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Dear Friends,

How neat! I learn so much from this forum. If I ever would become Orthodox, I would continue to believe that my real confirmation as a Roman Catholic would be valid. I'm guessing the Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic confirmations as valid?

A sinner,

Adam

Dear Adam,

No - reread the post by Brendan the Theologian!

The Orthodox Church does not have a view of the validity of the sacraments of other churches.

What Brendan said about chrismation of Orthodox who had fallen away from the Church was illustrated for me when we had some Russian soldiers who were formerly POW's under Muslim captors.

Some of them became Muslim to gain better treatment and they were chrismated (again) to be received back into the Orthodox Church.

Those who became Muslims under the Ottoman Turks were also received back into Orthodoxy via Chrismation.

A number also witnessed to their return to the Faith of Christ via New Martyrdom, making quite a public statement of their conversion back for the sake of the encouragement of the rest of the suffering Church.

But my Mother Orthodox Church said it would receive me by confession alone.

This has brought murmurs of protest from those former Anglican and RC converts who had to go through a catechetical process and Chrismation etc.

It also brought some snide looks from me . . .

Great to have you back, Brendan!

Alex

I think that Eastern Catholics who have been initiated into the Christian life as such are not chrismated upon entry into the Orthodox Church. My son, who was initiated as a Melkite Catholic, was not chrismated when he was received into the Orthodox Church (and was too young to be confessed), so he was simply received at the chalice. My wife and I -- who were both raised RC -- were both chrismated, but our son was treated differently because he was initiated as an Eastern Catholic.

No, Orthodoxy really takes no view as to whether one's Catholic confirmation was "valid". The act of chrismation is an act of reconciliation between the person and the Church administered to those who are, in some meaningful way, separated from the Church.

Brendan

In some Latin American nations, Orthodox Churches would receive Roman Catholics through profession of faith and confession. This is also because conversion does not go with large groups like in America, most converts are individuals who gradually become members of parishes. It's interesting that some priests would say that a Latin American Catholic would be more similar to Orthodox than an AngloAmerican one, curious isn't it? (In Argentina the ROCOR, which p�ractices re-baptism of Roman Catholics, receives people via chrismation and not through re-baptism)

My dear Orthodox friends!

I understand in the history of the Orthodox Church that Ukrainians and Belarusyn Orthodox were once rebaptised since the Russians did not consider pouring over the head to be a valid form of baptism.

What was that all about and is it an issue today?

Alex

In our Church, if someone who is Eastern Catholic (or Roman Catholic in an area where they use immersion) wants to enter our Church they are Chrismated. If they are Roman Catholic and Baptised by Sprinkling they receive Baptism and Chrismation. This is not a statement that Roman Catholics, or even Protestants, are unbaptised, it's just doing it accroding to our Cannon Laws which require tripple-immersion.

Brendan wrote:

Great to have Brendan back!

My 2 children (ages 7 and 9) were Chrismated along with me when I entered the Greek Archdiocese from the Ruthenian Church. Fr Andrew was very clear that our Chrismation would be the real thing (the actual holy mystery of Chrismation) and that it was not just a reconciliation with the Church. I chose to view it as a reconciliation but I knew it was not being presented to me by him that way. I mention this because there are Orthodox who feel that there is no grace in Catholic sacraments (a minority perhaps, but not an insignificant minority.)

When I returned to the Catholic Church a year and a half later I was told I needed to do so via Confession. I balked at it initially and I still wonder if that is really needed...but I submitted to the request. My confessor was real reluctant to accept it as part of my confession (he has a very high view of Orthodoxy). I prevailed upon him by explaining that I felt I needed to rectify my breaking communion with my Bishop. My confessor's absolution was very conditional...("if you have...").

My children did not have to do anything, however. They were just accepted back into the Catholic Church along with me.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

I know of a former Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic that went into the Antiochian Orthodox church and had to be rebaptised and chrismated.Obviously not all Orthodox jurisdictions do not have the same veiw on the formality of convert initiation. :rolleyes:

Dear coptic orthodox,you are aware that it was not always possible to completely immerse cathechumens in biblical times right?bathtubs were not a common thing in Judea.

The didache says "if you have no living water,baptise in other water,if you are not able in cold water,then warm.If you have neither,POUR water 3 times over the head,in the name of the Father,and of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit"

valentino

Yes, different churches in Orthodoxy handle things differently. ACROD, for example, reportedly receives (I assume cradle) Byzantine Catholics through confession. My experience in OCA was that my son -- a cradle Melkite -- was not chrismated (was told it wasn't necessary because the form of his initial chrismation was proper), and we were specifically told that our own chrismations were not "initiation" chrismations because the prayers were different. Not all Orthodox view it this way (even though the treatment is the same for Orthodox who need to be reconciled to the Church), as Dave's message indicates (and as one Antiochian priest once quipped to me that he had never heard of a "non-chrismation chrismation"). And, as we all know, Athos will likely rebaptize anyone who was not baptized Orthodox.

Friends,

Here is an article from the Church of Greece website that might help explain some things:

Reception of RC\'s into Orthodoxy [myriobiblos.gr]

Hope that helps.

anastasios