www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "Universal indult" to replace "Ecclesia Dei?"

If ever the universal indult becomes a reality, there is no abrogation of a local Bishop's powers. He remains THE authority in and within his diocese.

It is merely a withdrawal of a delegated authority pusuant to Ecclesia Dei to grant priests within his diocese individual indults to celebrate the TLM.

The local ordinary will still wield his authority over the proper celebration of the TLM in pursuance to the rules thus promulgated.

Amado

Very well stated, Amado.

Logos Teen

Oooops, wrong button!

Amado, I know what you're saying, but . . . This is the Roman Catholic Church we're talking about, and the the Bishop of Rome is more than a "first among equals" in that Church.

So, if the pope says that the Tridentine Rite is ok, it will be interesting to see if he tries to assert his authority over the bishops who do not want the Tridentine Rite and how successful he will be.

And, as 'Wondering' also asked, it will be interesting to see what the reaction of the laity would be, especially if they don't want it.

I hope that bishops will exercise pastoral care in implmenting this order (if it gets officially issued). But, judging by the "pastoral care" that was shown by some bishops in the 1970s with the Novus Ordo, it will be interesting to see what actually happens.

I have to log out now; back this evening.

-- John

What about the laity who didn't want the NO in 1970? Did they have any say? No, it was forced down their throats.

Not that it'll be the same now, but I wouldn't mind if it were. At least they'd get a really solid Catholic liturgy being shoved down their throats! Who can complain about that?!

Logos Teen

Those are good questions, Wondering.

I think I will take the Missouri approach with "show me". We've heard it was close before.

While this is a great thing, and of which I am in favor of, I am not sure a whole lot will change in the US. Here in our Latin Archdiocese, the FSSP priests pretty much have free reign on when and where to say Mass, and have a school with the blessing of the Archbishop as well.

I'll take a concrete, real and local example. At the Latin parish I attend occasionally during the week both the TLM and the NO are offered. The Latin pastor has retired, and the Sunday Mass schedule was pared down to one Mass at 8 a.m.

The Fraternity of St. Peter priest jumped at the chance to take the 11 a.m. slot, which was the "hot time" and by far the most attended with the former pastor. They were quickly given that time.

But since the TLM moved to 11 a.m., they maybe picked up a dozen people. The remaining 8 a.m. Mass, on the other hand, has jumped about 150 in attendance, and is standing room only on many mornings.

Not the snowball effect anticipated by the TLM folks at all. This universal indult will in almost every likelihood have no perceptible impact here, as everyone who wants to attend the TLM has ample opportunities (five Masses on Sunday in three different towns) already.

But nonetheless I pray that it happens.
FDD

Up here in Toronto I'd be surprised if there were more that a handful of priests who can celebrate the TLM. Most of the priests in my diocese are under 50 and probably grew up only knowing the NO.

Brad

Brad,

The "under 50" priests are the ones who will want to celebrate, if statistics have anything to say.

I can think of 5 or so priests under 45 in my archdiocese who want to celebrate it already, and will do so, perhaps even including my parish priest at home, who is about 38.

It will take time and effort to learn, for sure, especially since Latin has been so neglected in seminaries the past 30 or 40 years.

I plan on heavily pressuring my home parish priest to learn and celebrate the TLM; but he already has a subscription to Latin Mass Magazine so I figure he'll do it.

Logos Teen

THIS is THE problem... Gv.

Here is the story from a secular source: Timesonline UK.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2397919,00.html


The Times October 11, 2006


Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent



THE Pope is taking steps to revive the ancient tradition of the Latin Tridentine Mass in Catholic churches worldwide, according to sources in Rome.
Pope Benedict XVI is understood to have signed a universal indult � or permission � for priests to celebrate again the Mass used throughout the Church for nearly 1,500 years. The indult could be published in the next few weeks, sources told The Times.



Use of the Tridentine Mass, parts of which date from the time of St Gregory in the 6th century and which takes its name from the 16th-century Council of Trent, was restricted by most bishops after the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).

This led to the introduction of the new Mass in the vernacular to make it more accessible to contemporary audiences. By bringing back Mass in Latin, Pope Benedict is signalling that his sympathies lie with conservatives in the Catholic Church.

One of the most celebrated rebels against its suppression was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke with Rome in 1988 over this and other reforms. He was excommunicated after he consecrated four bishops, one of them British, without permission from the Pope.

Some Lefebvrists, including those in Brazil, have already been readmitted. An indult permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass could help to bring remaining Lefebvrists and many other traditional Catholics back to the fold.

The priests of England and Wales are among those sometimes given permission to celebrate the Old Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Tridentine Masses are said regularly at the Oratory and St James�s Spanish Place in London, but are harder to find outside the capital.

The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.

Catholic bloggers have been anticipating the indult for months. The Cornell Society blog says that Father Martin Edwards, a London priest, was told by Cardinal Joseph Zen, of Hong Kong, that the indult had been signed. Cardinal Zen is alleged to have had this information from the Pope himself in a private meeting.

�There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,� a source told The Times. �But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.�

The 1962 Missal issued by Pope John XXIII was the last of several revisions of the 1570 Missal of Pius V. In a lecture in 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger said that it would be �fatal� for the Missal to be �placed in a deep-freeze, left like a national park, a park protected for the sake of a certain kind of people, for whom one leaves available these relics of the past�.

Daphne McLeod, chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, a UK umbrella group that campaigns for the restoration of traditional orthodoxy, said: �A lot of young priests are teaching themselves the Tridentine Mass because it is so beautiful and has prayers that go back to the Early Church.�

TRADITIONAL SERVICE

The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation

In 1570, Pope St Pius V said that priests could use the Tridentine rite forever, �without scruple of conscience or fear of penalty�

Since the Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass has been almost entirely superseded by the Mass of Pope Paul VI

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who took the lead in opposing the reforms, continued to celebrate the old Mass at his seminary in Ec�ne, Switzerland, and formed a dissident group. He was excommunicated in 1988

The advantages of the Mass, according to the faithful, are in its uniformity and the fact that movements and gestures are prescribed, so that there is no room for �personalisation�

I believe more than anything it is the attempt to bring PX into the fold. I think and hope IT IS SUPER NEWS !!!!!!!!!!

the NO will be the ordinary missal and the TLM will be the extraordinary missal.

Man I hope this goes through. I am lucky to now have the TLM here every week plus DL !!!

from a poster on another forum concerning the universal indult..


Benedict XVI's tenure as pope may be seen to future generations as the fulcrum point (with the pope holding the handle of the lever) at which the Catholic Church was finally moved back from its disasterous dalliance with Modernism. If it is true, then this is not a namby-pamby action -- it's a full court press.

Yes, there are few priests who can say the Mass in Latin -- now -- but that won't always be the case. The newest generation of vocations is truly conservative (in the classical definition of that word) when it comes to their understanding of the Catholic faith. They know that the Church was hijacked by pirates following Vatican II -- pirates who left the the Church in tatters, floundering on the shoals of relativism and indifferentism. Most of these pirates abandoned ship back in the 1970's, but those who stayed on board became little tin-pot dictators who refused to honor the the true captain of the ship. This new generation of priests and religious will join Pope Benedict and his crew in reclaiming the ship and will guide the Barque of Peter back to its proper course. Latin is the beginning.

It's not about Latin, it's about being Catholic. It's not about rubrics, it's about worship. It is time -- long past time -- that we get back to worshiping Jesus Christ as our Lord in loving obedience to His rightfully guided Church. If this change comes about, we will see an increase in vocations, and the Church will grow as more souls will seek to find the treasure of Truth that has always been the Catholic Church.

Pray an Acathist in English (or Slavonic) for err..... the Latin Mass????

Better yet, pray it in Latin!

Acathistus Hymnus [ivanmoody.co.uk]

Edward, great find! "This Latin version has been dated to about the year 825 by Dom Michel Huglo." - Another example of how language is not the essence of prayer - it can be translated, and even this hymn into latin from at least the 800's! It is about true worship in the way of belief, and although language can add a respectful and mysterious element, which can be good, it is not what latin Catholics are praying for - it is for the RC Mass that was merely codified by Pius V and existed in the same prayers that developed since the time of the apostles, as the developemnet of the DL, as well. God does not change; why should we change our liturgies to suit ourselves. These are treasured liturgies which I (IMHO) do not belive should be lost. Modernism changed the TLM into something else - communal first, God secondly. This Akathist Hymn is a beautiful way to pray, as The Rosary and Jesus Prayer. Pick a language; any language at all. God Bless! - Gv.