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"Lutheran and Anglican communion services are virtually identical to the Novus Ordo in their texts."
I would say similar as both of these are very clear in their Eucharistic prayers that Christ's Sacrifice was once on Calvary and that the present service is in no way a sacrifice.
On the otherhand, some High Church Anglican services are almost identical to Tridentine texts, some avoiding even the Eucharistic prayers above and using the Roman Canon as is.
So I can not agree with your conclusion that the sense of Sacrifice or Real Presence is weaker as a result of the texts themselves, the doctrines are there and are clear, despite what some Protestants might make of them.
Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
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Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
So I can not agree with your conclusion that the sense of Sacrifice or Real Presence is weaker as a result of the texts themselves, the doctrines are there and are clear, despite what some Protestants might make of them.
Fr. Deacon Lance Deacon Lance, Originally, I was speaking only of the Novus Ordo text itself being weaker, when compared and contrasted with the Tridentine text. That is virtually self-evident when you go to the trouble of doing a comparison. I was not focusing on what is being taught, and the sense which the Faithful have. That is another question. In some regions of the country, the Faithful are being taught well. But,I would argue that, in many geographical areas, there has indeed been a substantial decline in the understanding of the Faithful as to what the Divine Liturgy/Mass is, and whether or not Our Lord is truly present in the consecrated Gifts. For one thing, recent polls taken indicate that the great majority of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. I see this manifested in the flesh, quite frequently, and this is in a relatively conservative R.C. diocese (Scranton). Our parish participates in a multi-parish, bi-ritual parochial school. We have the Divine Liturgy in our church, at times, for the entire school body. While our Byzantine kids generally exude the proper sense of reverence for the Sacrament, the Latin Rite kids DEFINITELY do not. I recently witnessed one of the latter spitting out the particle into a handkerchief, with his mother helping him, because "he didn't like the taste of the wine". My wife happened to be sitting next to them when this occurred, and overheard the comments. The fact that he referred to the precious blood as "wine" should tell you all that you need to know. I have had other kids approach for Holy Communion with gum in their mouths, or their hands in their pockets. Have they been taught well? You can't prove it by me. Does Novus Ordo have anything to do with this? I would argue that it is at least a contributing factor. We'll just have to agree to disagree. In Christ, Dn. Robert
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Originally posted by Mark of Ephesus:
TRADITIONAL SERVICE
The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation What are the Hebrew words used in the TLM ? Brad
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Originally posted by Intrigued Latin: Originally posted by Mark of Ephesus:
[b]
TRADITIONAL SERVICE
The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation
Brad [/b]One of the Hebrew words in the TLM I readily can think of is the "Alleluia" (from "halleluyah" or "hallelujah") where it is normally sung. Of course, the Greek phrases in the TLM are "Kyrie eleison!" (Lord have mercy!) and "Christe eleison!" (Christ have mercy!). Amado
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Hosanna, Alleluia, Sabaoth, etc. 9% (so almost one out of every ten words) in the TLM are Hebrew, but I think that might be including the names of Saints.  Brian, As for my recommendation that someone pray an Akathist for this intention, it was because I understand that some Eastern Catholics would, rightfully, rather pray an Akathist than a Rosary. There are Eastern Catholics out there who do care about the state of Roman liturgy and about Latin Catholic liturgical affairs, just as I and other Latins care about the liturgical affairs and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches, since we are all united in the One Church. Logos Teen
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Originally posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon:
IMHO, for the good of the Western Church, the Novus Ordo Missae should be scrapped, and replaced by optional vernacular or Latin-language usage of the Old Rite, which is of equal antiquity to the Rite that we use. While the Old Rite developed organically (with a freeze ocurring at the hands of Pope St. Pius V), as did ours, the Novus Ordo is a product of a committee consisting of a "progressivist" hierarch (who was accused by Italian writer Tito Casini of having been a Freemason (Bugnini denied this prior to his death)-allegedly, Casini showed a picture of Abp. Anibale Bugnini in his Masonic garb to Pope Paul VI, who then exiled him to Iran as Papal Nuncio. I do remember Bugnini visiting the American hostages in Iran!) and several Protestant advisors. The late Michael Davies, a British R.C. Traditionalist convert from high-church Anglicanism, once wrote that if you read the text of the Old Rite, and extract everything which is theologically offensive to Protestants, you are left with the Novus Ordo Missae. Enough said!
Dn. Robert BINGO! YOU are the ONLY ONE so far who has answered with researched knowledge and the very core of why Traditionalist Latins want the return of The TLM. People who are well meaning just do not know. God Bless all. - Gv
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(ahem) Since no one has ever put forth any actual evidence that the late Cardinal Bugnini was a Freemason, and since he always denied it, and since he's no longer alive to defend himself, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that maybe he wasn't?
And could we also please remember that, whatever flaws it may have, the so-called "Novus Ordo" is a legitimately promulgated rite of the Church and therefore ought to be treated with respect? (Some of us still like it.)
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Originally posted by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos:\Brian,
As for my recommendation that someone pray an Akathist for this intention, it was because I understand that some Eastern Catholics would, rightfully, rather pray an Akathist than a Rosary. There are Eastern Catholics out there who do care about the state of Roman liturgy and about Latin Catholic liturgical affairs, just as I and other Latins care about the liturgical affairs and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches, since we are all united in the One Church.
Logos Teen [/QB] ok. ok, it just seemed strange to my ears to hear that 
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Deacon Robert:
So what was the follow-up to the incident with the child spitting out the Holy Gifts? And what was said to his mother?
We train our Extraordinary Ministers to chase people down to retrieve the Holy Gifts in my Latin Parish. I've personally taken the Host back from people who refuse to consume it and are leaving the church with It in their hands: simply chase them down. The scandal is in NOT doing this kind of dramatic thing. Our pastor has done the same thing and makes no bones about the fact that this IS THAT IMPORTANT.
How about the mother? Showing such disrespect for the Eucharist is supposed to get one an automatic excommunication--and unless I'm mistaken it's reserved to the Pope to lift it.
In Christ,
BOB
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I'm pleased as punch staying away from this topic and its kin ... Guess those discipline lessons worked quite well... Remember fraternal charity... james
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Brian,
I certainly prefer Raduysya to Ave!
To me, 'ave sponsa insponsata' feels rather too much like 'privet nevestvo nenevestnaya'.
Nothing stops you from using 'Gaude sponsa insponsata' - 'Rejoice O Bride unbrided' if you (as I do) prefer!
in Domino,
Edward
p.s. am typing this from Singapore's airport - am on way to Peking for 10 days, primarily for business, but will get chance to visit sites pertaining to the Martyrs (both Cat and Dox) of the Boxer Rebellion. Better yet, I'll have a chance to sing at the kliros - the Russian Embassy has a priest from Hong Kong in to serve liturgy once a month, and this weekend is when he's in! I haven't had the joy of singing at a Slavonic liturgy for over a year now, so now that I'm getting Vigil+DL for both the Feast of the Protection as well as Sunday, is quite a blessing.
Remember me in prayers please - have to log out now...
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Originally posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon: Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
[b] "Vatican sources say that the papal document affirms the principle that there is only one liturgical rite for the Latin Church."
A mispeak already, the Latin Church has also the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites, and several Uses of the Roman Rite. Deacon Robert, Deacon Lance is correct, the Mass of the Mozarabic Rite is served in 7 churches in the Toledo diocese, in addition to the Mozarabic Chapel of the Cathedral of Toledo, according to the Guia de la Iglesia Catholica en Espana. One parish has, I believe, been designated to exclusively serve according to the Rite. Liturgia Hispana vel Mozarabica 2004 [ffyl.uncu.edu.ar] Rito Hispano Mozarabe [mercaba.org] La Ermita - Rito Mozarabe [usuarios.lycos.es] Mozarabic Chant - Audio Clips [antiguacapillahispana.com] The Mass of the Ambrosian Rite retains its ancient beauty and, in addition to being the dominant ritual usage throughout most of the region of Lombardy, is also served in a couple of the border Swiss cantons. Missale Ambrosianum - 2004 [ffyl.uncu.edu.ar] The site of the Pontifical Ambrosian Institute of Sacred Music [unipiams.org] is a veritable goldmine, albeit chiefly in Italian. There is also a site with a rich treasure trove of photos of the Ambrosian Rite Liturgy, the link to which I cannot locate at this moment. And, additionally, the Bragan Rite is not suppressed and is served in its historic chapel, as well as by a number of clergy who have been granted permission to serve it elsewhere, as our brother Filipe has referenced on several occasions. Missale Bracarense [ffyl.uncu.edu.ar] Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Three other Hebrew words which come to mind - because they are used in the Divine Liturgy, the Tridentine Mass and the Pauline Mass are:
1) Amen
2) Sabaoth
3) Hosanna
Fr. Serge
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Originally posted by Theist Gal:
(ahem) Since no one has ever put forth any actual evidence that the late Cardinal Bugnini was a Freemason, and since he always denied it, and since he's no longer alive to defend himself, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that maybe he wasn't?
And could we also please remember that, whatever flaws it may have, the so-called "Novus Ordo" is a legitimately promulgated rite of the Church and therefore ought to be treated with respect? (Some of us still like it.) Amen!!
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
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Originally posted by Theist Gal:
(ahem) Since no one has ever put forth any actual evidence that the late Cardinal Bugnini was a Freemason, and since he always denied it, and since he's no longer alive to defend himself, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that maybe he wasn't?
And could we also please remember that, whatever flaws it may have, the so-called "Novus Ordo" is a legitimately promulgated rite of the Church and therefore ought to be treated with respect? (Some of us still like it.) Archbishop Anibale Bugnini was never made a Cardinal. He was removed as head of the Congregation for Divine Worship (I believe that's what it was called then) by Paul VI, and sent to Iran. This happened right when Casini was making his case (as per the writngs of Michael Davies). As to the Protestant advisers, Bugnini denied that also. The problem is, according to Davies, several of those Ministers came forward and confirmed that they had, in fact, been consultants to Bugnini. Bugnini, in his writings, boasted about bringing about a "revolution" in the Church (not a "reform"). Dn. Robert
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