www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Is the Ecumenical Patriarch making a power play?

Dear all,

Please be advised that if I have unintentionally conveyed hatred for anyone that is not what is in my heart and God knows that as well as the heart's of all including of Anastasios. I don't know what other people are praying for but it seems that Gaudior's judgements have implicated some of us to say the least.

I don't recall joining a group that is conveying the feeling that the moment we begin telling someone else that they cannot love Christ because they are not in the "right" Church, or jurisdiction.

I took Alice's comment "I am starting to wonder if we have morphed into a cult" as a general statement about the Orthodox Church which she had stretched and articulated from her attention to a small minority of those who should be ignored at best.

It is best for me to leave you good people in peace and refrain from any further commentary for a while as well.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Neighter Anastasios nor Matthew claimed this.

To point out that, according to the Orthodox Church, the current Pope of Rome is not Orthodox, is not in itself an act of hatred.

Christian

[Alice,

Please don't let Orthoman bother you. Rudeness and bullying are recurring problems of his for which he has been banned from posting and if he keeps it up I am sure he will be again.

Fr. Deacon Lance]


Deacon Lance:

Why is it that when you correct an erroneous statement made by someone that would have very serious implications if true, you are considered as rude and a bully? Why is it that when you go out of your way to provide backup for your correction by getting comfirmation on what you are challeging by the people who are being accused, you are considered rude and a bully? Why is it that when you ask for further information or confirmation of what you consider as a false statement made by another, you are considered rude and a bully and threatened with banishment?

I thought this was a forum for discussion between people of both various and different viewpoints. But apparently it no longer is.

I think its time for me to go back into VOLUNTARILY EXILE! Which I'm sure will make you and some others very happy.

OrthoMan

This is ridiculous! How could I possibly mean that when I support the Ecumenical Patriarch and my Archdiocese????

Most understood that I meant 'individuals' as the 'we', but unfortunately, these 'individuals' make up the historic laos , the holy laity, the voice of the people, and the traditional heart and soul of Orthodoxy..and although Matthew may consider himself among the 'small minority', it is the 'small minority' that has the loudest and ugliest voice.

Thank you Gaudior and may God bless you for your heartfelt and inspiring words. Indeed, if we Orthodox are tending to our own souls and spiritual lives, the fruit will be love and charity, and that will become evident.

What is the point of coming on a forum sponsored by our Catholic Byzantine brethren to insult them?

That is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

I also thank all those that sent me messages of support and blessings last night. Yours, my brothers and sisters, is REAL Christianity, and it doesn't matter what faith label it is packaged with. May our Lord bless you all with every blessing from above, and every protection and guidance in your lives, spiritual, secular and otherwise. I really do love you and pray for you. The kindness of your hearts in this gesture and other gestures have touched my soul, and I remain inspired by the light of Christ which you display. Your different churches are very lucky to have you!

Anastasios, you are and always have been very sweet and kind. To be honest, I was very dismayed with how different you sounded at the beginning of this thread, and I thought to myself, "if that is what Orthodoxy is doing to him, then he is better off not becoming Orthodox". It wasn't the content of your post, but the coldness of your attitude.

Hopefully, you were just having a bad day, because it has changed, and you are back to the Anastasios we all know and love! God bless you.

I forgive those who have insinuated horrible things about me. Oh well, that is the Christian walk, isn't it? I am a big girl, and together with God as my anchor, I will handle it.

In our Christ,
Alice

Alice,

you use pretty harsh words against Anastasios.

What exactly has he done to offend you, other than holding a different view than you concerning the Orthodoxy of the Pope of Rome?

I think you're being very unfair towards him. His journey from the Byzantine Catholic Church towards the Orthodox Church has, as far as I can understand, not been "from one day to the other".

And being opposed to the IMMEDIATE establishment of communion between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches WITHOUT a solution to the doctrinal differences and unity of faith (I don't if this is really your position eighter, but it might seem like it judging from some of your posts), does not mean one is forever opposed to "union between east and west".

Maybe it isn't only others who needs be forgiven by you, maybe you also need to ask for forgivness?

Or maybe you're "just having a bad day"?

Christian

Dear OSc:

You use pretty harsh words against Alice.

When phrases like "false ecumenism" are lofted without any explanation, and when the EP is held up as the exemplar of this false ecumenism with no justification, then I think that Alice's impressions are not without foundation.

Don't know why in this thread and the other that Anastasios is on a tear against the EP. But I'd rather it would be discussed.

djs

Orthoman,

I don't know Bob, Why is it you lack the ability to post with out coming off like a jerk and bully. Alice makes a statement and instead of a polite question you proceed to tell her what she heard.

"What you heard was the Ecumenical Patriarch being commemorated under his title of 'Patriarch of NEW ROME'."

And continuing with comments like this that are smug and condescending:

"Exactly! Which is the point that we have been trying to make to Alice all along.!"

"Alice: You claim to have a sufficient knowledge of Orthodoxy and your husband is even more educated in the faith. If that were true, then you wouldn't have to be reminded that if the event you claim to have witnessed had taken place then it would have been, according to what Orthodox believe, an act of apostatizing the Orthodox faith! And St Vladimir's would have been henceforth considered as Uniate!"

"I would be interested in hearing the answer to that myself."

I can understand you being scandalized if an Orthodox priest or bishop did this, but to go into to denial about and attack others for claiming this happened is ridiculous. How do you or Fr. John know it didn't happen? Were you or Fr. John at every Liturgy 6 years ago? There is an icon of Pope John XXIII at New Skete, because it shouldn't be from an Orthodox perspective are you going to deny it exists? I have heard Catholic priests commemorate the EP. This stuff happens. It shouldn't be cause for castiagting those who bring the incidents forward.

You could have asked Alice; "Are you sure they weren't commerating the Patriarch of New Rome? or Alice would mind providing a source for your statements?" But instead you post in the same rude style you have been warned about in the past.

So you tell me: Why do insist on posting rudely and bullying those who dare point out something about the Orthodox Church you don't wish to acknowledge? Why are you unable to accept or engage in any form of evaluation or criticism of your Church without inappropriate behavior?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Gaudior,

A great post, truly charitable to all brethern, but I am totally baffled regarding Anastasios, who I find to be very honest and charitable towards all Christians be they East Or West. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere amongst these posts.

james

Dear Christian,

Well, if I have offended, I do humbly ask Anastasios for forgiveness. You must know me well enough to know that I would do that.

Did I not say that we all know and love him for his kindness? Were those not kind words? Did I really speak as horribly to him as you make me out to have?

Or is it that I am a scandal to most of the Orthodox on this board, and someone to beat down, and shut up? I am not stupid. I see the pattern. It is obvious. Save for dear, dear Gaudior (and a few others who have p.m'd me, but don't want to get into these controversies) who really, really get what Orthodoxy is about...love and charity, and the means to salvation of one's soul, I seem to be 'anathema' to many other Orthodox . This, despite doing more for Orthodoxy by translating Orthodox saint's lives and teaching Orthodox catechism, than perhaps the rest of you?

Perhaps if I am so offensive in my 'compromising' of Orthodoxy by supporting the efforts for reunification of my Ecumenical Patriarch, then maybe those Orthodox who feel this way shouldn't be on this board that was set up with loving discourse in mind?

"By the fruits you shall know them".

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!
Most Holy Theotokos, save us!


In Christ,
Alice

If a misunderstanding, I trust Anastasios will forgive me for it. His words to Alice after she stated that others besides the Orthodox may be admitted to Heaven if it is Christ's will struck me as beyond uncharitable at the time. If such was not his intent, and it appears it was not, from his posts, then, indeed, I misunderstood him, and must ask for his forgiveness in naming him with those who feel the need to attack everything that does not fit with their OWN definition of Orthodoxy.

As Alice has stated, because of her charity, she has become a target among those she is in Communion with...the Orthodox. No one should need to be a target for better reflecting Christ's love than most other members on this or any other Forum.

On the other hand, those who deride others must learn to view their posts as others will view them. Orthodoxy is becoming an ugly word around here, because those who trumpet it most loudly as "traditionalists" miss the mark completely, and scandalize Orthodox and Catholics alike. This, by the way does not refer to Anastasios, but to others..balaban, and Daniel/Nektarios, of "banned" memory, who espoused ultra-traditionalist but seemed to equate it with "who can sneer the loudest".

Gaudior, in explanation.

Alice,

I'm not sure how to say this in a way that wouldn't offend and I'm sorry if I do, but you don't seem to be very tolerant of views different than your own when it comes to the reunification of east and west.

You seem to belive that those who does not agree with your analyses of the difference between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Church and the proper way to restore the communion between them, are not as good and true Orthodox Christians as you are.

Anastasios, Matthew and Orthoman (and me?) are filled with "hatred", they do not show "love and charity", they don't "get what Orthodoxy is really about".

You on the other hand, and those who share your point of view (for example Gaudior) DO understand "what Orthodoxy is really about" and you have "done so much more for Orthodoxy" than the rest of us.

As we know, some extremist traditionalists consider fellow Orthodox Christians with a more ecumenist attitude to be less Orthodox than themselves.

You seem to consider fellow Orthodox Christians with a LESS ecumenist attitude to be less Orthodox than you.


Perhaps if I am so offensive in my 'compromising' of Orthodoxy by supporting the efforts for reunification of my Ecumenical Patriarch, then maybe those Orthodox who feel this way shouldn't be on this board that was set up with loving discourse in mind?


Purhaps you're right, purhaps there is no place on this board for Orthodox Christians who does not share your point of view when it comes to ecumenism.

After all, your view is more in line with the position of the Byzantine Catholics in general than the view of the less ecumenist Orthodox is.

Again, I hope this post don't offend you too much...I tried to disipline myself in my choice of word, I felt like using much harsher words, because your last post really did offend me.

Christian

Dear Christian,

Please don't misconstrue my intent...

I support my Ecumenical Patriarch, not Joe Schmoe, or someone else's spiritual guru, but MY PATRIARCH! In so, am I not being a faithful Orthodox?

I have never argued with anyone on this board about ecumenism. I have argued about charity and love, but definitely not with anyone about their views. This whole thread insulted ME, discrediting what *I* heard, (sorry, I didn't make it up), or what happened, (as in the almost inter-communion in the early 1990's). These are events that occured...how did I argue with those that are not ecumenists? I have this hunch that you all are trying to grasp at straws..anything infact, to discredit me, so that these 'horrid' truths will not have been revealed. Actually, I am surprised, because you should really be happy that I revealed this event of the E.P., because ultimately, it did not happen, did it?

As for Gaudior, for the record, he doesn't agree with me on ecumenism, but he speaks charitably, is faithful to God through His Church, and prays for others on and off this forum.

I really don't care if one agrees with me or not, and I say this really and honestly. I don't even get into most of the theological discourses here. All I care about is the heart and the spirit of love which should be part and parcel to Christianity in general, and Orthodoxy, specifically.

I just wish you guys would all realize how terribly angry and nasty you all sound to others, that is all.(It has NOTHING to do with me or how you speak to *me*, I am inconsequential) It discredits and condemns OUR faith. If your goal is to show people how beautiful and correct Orthodoxy is, in my opinion, you are going about it the wrong way.

When I read about Orthodox saints, they are always full of love and charity to all, including non-Orthodox. They acquired the peace that surpasses all understanding, the peace and love of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

" Acquire the spirit of peace and a thousand souls around you shall be saved"...St. Seraphim of Sarov

Dear Christian, please don't you take this the wrong way, but when I am feeling all agitated like you seem to be by my mere existence, I pray. I pray Orthodox prayers like the Akathist to our Most Holy Mother of God, I say the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope, and I do prostrations, and slowly, I am able to find my heart again. That is the prayer rule I have been given by my spiritual father who is an Athonite monk.

Orthodoxy is so beautiful and is such an incredible means to attaining 'theosis' and worship of God. Try not to get confused into worshipping the means instead of the Truth: Jesus Christ.

I will pray for you tonight. I am obviously your enemy. Forgive me for scandalizing you.

Humbly in Christ,
Alice

Alice,

how am I supposed to answer this?

I have been disagreing with you on certain points, this does not mean I consider you my enemy...and I'm not "aggitated by your mere existance"! (where in the world did you get that idea from??!)

I will not engage in any further discussion with you. I'm obviously talking to deaf ears since you seem to consider me as nothing but a dark hole of hatred and nastyness.

I will consider quitting this board altogether.

Thank you for the spiritual advice. I won't presume to be in a position to give any to you.

Christian,
deeply sad and chocked.

Now we are getting ridiculous, quitting the forum does not benefit anyone. We are to exchange ideas and discuss, some of us may be a little ridgid or some are flexible heck if we can't get it done here how in the heck are those bishops going to do it. I like to borrow my evangelical friends quote, WWJD, and what would He say about this.

I'm sorry people, I'm tired of borders, fences and power struggles.

I might be a RC, but I remember the Orthodox Patriarchs, Eastern Catholic Bishops, and Pope John Paul II etc in my daily prayers.

So excommunicate me, I'm still here.

james

Dear Alice,

I have read some of your posts and know that you are very loving and even pray for those you may disagree with like Father Averky of thrice blessed memory. I saw him just before he reposed he told me I was quite proud and moving in time a bit latter he told me I was kind. I kinda of figure I'm somewhere in between often. Most people Orthodox or not Orthodox vacillate, it is a common struggle. He also asked me to forgive him of his remarks in the past. For some of us older guys it is more of a struggle to be kind, loving, obedient, humble and need to work at it more than others the past years can make it difficult. Perhaps I would do well to shut up and not tarnish the Orthodox faith by means of my words and how they are understood. I realize that you know that Nektarios is young and willing to lay his life down as a gunhoe recruited marine. Foxholes and God can change a young mans perspective while we are comfortable in our homes with our families thanks be to bold men like him. He might find a Roman Catholic or Jewish buddy to help or help him out.

I have a dear Greek friend who is kind enough to often tell me to shut up already. He used to be an Old Calenderist Greek and actually got thrown in jail for opposing a ecumenical prayer service with you know who. That was about 15 years ago. Today he is a New Calendar Greek who works very hard for the New Calendar Orthodox Church he even painted a western style icon which he made more Greek Orthodox. Nowadays he loves the new Calender Orthodox Bishop's Orthodox sermons he used to vehemently oppose.

I just received a private email from the Orthodox Scandinavian Christian whose concern and humble words are also of a reflection of loving disposition.

You are correct Alice, Christ has given us the commandment to love one another.
Less importantly, you also cannot be correct in your statement below.

Anastasios, you are and always have been very sweet and kind. To be honest, I was very dismayed with how different you sounded at the beginning of this thread, and I thought to myself, "if that is what Orthodoxy is doing to him, then he is better off not becoming Orthodox". It wasn't the content of your post, but the coldness of your attitude.

I would venture to say that there are no Orthodox fathers that could possibly agree with what you have written above. Orthodoxy can't do bad things to people and he can't be better off by not becoming Orthodox. People who don't realize what they are saying can display unusual understanding of Orthodoxy and are better off by not saying they are Orthodox when it is obvious that they are or think they are according to an individual personal definition of Orthodoxy.

Keep us in your prayers and be at peace with us even if we don't agree with your sincere understanding.

I'm sure that all us are Christians and able to forgive each other as Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has taught us.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin