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Orthodox Pyrohy,
I stand corrected, thanks. If I ever hear aobut a russian byzcath church I'll send you an email.

Hesychios,
I would hope so!Both varieties are necessary and natural;linguistic and actual

Peace,
Indigo

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Well..I dont understand half the politics and ideas here that you're all talking about. Why seminaries arent accepting the right people and all that is a mystery to me. I'm sorry to here this if it's true (everyone has their own perceptions don't they).

What I strongly feel is that you ought to put more ads on television to get people to come into Eastern Churches of all types. Also put ads up near or inside Assemblies of God Pentecostal churche type buildings.

If the local car dealer can do advertising on television so can a Church. When will churches ever realize this!? Fight back with the power of the mediums of communication.

Learning of a native liturgical or cultural languages is important...Priests ought to be required to do that is my opinion. Elders and leaders in the Church ought to have a responsibility/requirement to learn languages too. I see nothing wrong with teaching most of the laity..though I dont know that I feel it's necessary for certain either..the more that learn the merrier..translations..also sounds great..better learn the language or translate.

We are in the USA....we do need in some way to be a North American church...Expecting people to know two languages is fine. Perhaps even three. Beyond that I dont think is possible. In some ways the ethnicity of the Churches when taken to the USA is a little odd to me. I just cant answer this question, except to say that in the present it is good that they are separate in the sense that it does help preserve their identity in the USA, the maronites especially for instance since so few of them are even left in Lubnaan or Syria.

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I don't know overall how the EC's are doing. There are two parishes (Ukrainian and Ruthenian) in the town where my parish is. Neither has a permanent priest, and the Ruthenian church has liturgy really early I think to accomodate the priest's schedule. He also doesn't have a Slavic surname, so I'm not sure what his church actually is. They did print in their bulletin that there's all of ten minutes for confession before liturgy, and that people can't run over because the priest has to maintain a tight schedule. I can't help but believe that is really detrimental to the life of a parish. I could be wrong though.

I do have one question. Why aren't the Melkites expanding at the same rate as the Antiochians?

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They did print in their bulletin that there's all of ten minutes for confession before liturgy, and that people can't run over because the priest has to maintain a tight schedule. I can't help but believe that is really detrimental to the life of a parish. I could be wrong though.
Unfortunately, I think you are right on the mark. It doesn't matter what a parish is capable of...if there is no spiritual life it will die or be pronounced dead. Unfortunately, (I have no idea which parish you are speaking of, however based on my experiences) that Ruthenian parish (can't speak for the Ukrainians) will ultimately close, and the people will be blamed for its closure regardless of what they do. Why? The best way to "kill" a parish is to remove the spiritual life. 10 minutes for confessions, and keeping on a "tight" schedule so as not to run over does nothing for fostering a spiritual community. It sounds to me like it is one more example of the Ruthenian Church killing its own.

Chris

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Originally posted by Ilian:
Why aren't the Melkites expanding at the same rate as the Antiochians?
Ilian-

Do you have statistics for the Antiochian's rate of expansion. (not trying to be confrontational; it's just that I hear they're expanding and I'd like to see that stats behind this).

Best,

Markos

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Originally posted by MarkosC:
Do you have statistics for the Antiochian's rate of expansion. (not trying to be confrontational; it's just that I hear they're expanding and I'd like to see that stats behind this).
OrthodoxWiki says this:

Quote
The Archdiocese today

Its current primate is Metropolitan Philip (Saliba), who has six other diocesan bishops assisting him in caring for the nine dioceses of the growing Archdiocese, which is the third largest Orthodox Christian jurisdiction in North America, having 236 communities (38 of which are missions). Estimates of the number of faithful range from 51,320 to 84,000[1] to 380,000[2] depending on the report and the counting method being used. The number of new Antiochian parishes in the decade between 1990 and 2000 rose by approximately 33%, and the primary membership growth in the Archdiocese has been from American converts.[3] From 2003 to 2005, an increase of 1,229 communicants was reported at the conventions, an increase of 2.5%.
The number of new parishes is probably the best indicator of growth, because that number is reliable. I took that from here - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America.

This PDF - http://antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/585.pdf

Has a list of missions started since 1988. I know near me St. Philip's has started two missions and St. John Chrysostom in York went from being a mission to a full blown church and they have built a temple.

Do you know the answer to my original question?

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Ilian,

At one of my diaconal retreats,Bishop Nicholas (auxillary for the Melkites) said that shortage of priests has hampered their ability to open new missions. I believe he said they could start a dozen new missions if they had the priests to run them. I didn't get the chance to ask him why not start the mission and let them do reader's services until priest's could be found. I get the feeling Catholic hierarchs are not comfortable with lay led misssions.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Originally posted by Job:
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They did print in their bulletin that there's all of ten minutes for confession before liturgy, and that people can't run over because the priest has to maintain a tight schedule. I can't help but believe that is really detrimental to the life of a parish. I could be wrong though.
Unfortunately, I think you are right on the mark. It doesn't matter what a parish is capable of...if there is no spiritual life it will die or be pronounced dead. Unfortunately, (I have no idea which parish you are speaking of, however based on my experiences) that Ruthenian parish (can't speak for the Ukrainians) will ultimately close, and the people will be blamed for its closure regardless of what they do. Why? The best way to "kill" a parish is to remove the spiritual life. 10 minutes for confessions, and keeping on a "tight" schedule so as not to run over does nothing for fostering a spiritual community. It sounds to me like it is one more example of the Ruthenian Church killing its own.

Chris
On a more optimistic note, a few weeks ago I went to the priest for confession. There were a couple of people who had already arrived. By the time I was the only one left waiting, it was already a few minutes past the time for Divine Liturgy to begin. Fr. told me that he would hear my confession and as to the matter of being Divine Liturgy several minutes late, his response was, "They can keep praying a while longer," or some words along those same lines. While I don't want to make a habit of just showing up at the last minute, expecting Fr. to hear my confession, I was glad that he takes the matter seriously enough to be willing to begin Divine Liturgy a bit late.
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Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
At one of my diaconal retreats,Bishop Nicholas (auxillary for the Melkites) said that shortage of priests has hampered their ability to open new missions. I believe he said they could start a dozen new missions if they had the priests to run them.
Why don't they have the priests then? I believe the Antiochians are doing fairly well in that regard as well.

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I didn't get the chance to ask him why not start the mission and let them do reader's services until priest's could be found. I get the feeling Catholic hierarchs are not comfortable with lay led misssions.
Why on earth is that?

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Ilian,

"Why don't they have the priests then? I believe the Antiochians are doing fairly well in that regard as well."

Vocation shortage like everyone else? They have 42 parishes and missions with about that many priests, a few cover two parishes. I would be surprised to hear the AOA has 236 priests. Do you know how many they have?

"Why on earth is that?"

Trusteeism fears I believe.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Deacon Lance,

I may be reading your post the wrong way, but I believe the AOA has 189 parishes and missions by there own disclosure, and about 236 priests and that includes those that are retired.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Originally posted by Father Anthony:
Deacon Lance,

I may be reading your post the wrong way, but I believe the AOA has 189 parishes and missions by there own disclosure, and about 236 priests and that includes those that are retired.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
I just realized in the original link I posted I had a period that broke the URL. Here it is again. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America

In the link it says there are 236 communities in the AOA, 38 of which are missions. I'm sure some of the missions are serviced by priests from established parishes. I don't know the overall number of priests in the AOA. I heard in 2005 they had something like 20 ordinations (all of them married AFAIK). I've been in some parishes where they have more than one priest, but in the ones where they only have one I saw at least one deacon or sub-deacon. So it seems to me they must have something of a fairly steady pipeline.

I don't know if there's a shortage of priests in Orthodoxy in this country in general. Fr. Anthony would probably be the best source of that info. I would guess it probably varies between jurisdictions and regions. I have never personally been in an Orthodox parish that didn't have a permanent priest.

I'm still fundamentally not understanding why the Melkites aren't doing what the Antiochians are.

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From what I have been told by different hierarchs regarding the possibility of shortages, is that we are holding our own right at the moment. There was a period of time about a decade ago that was for a while in which the ordinations were few and the retirements and deaths were more. I know that there is no real surplus, but one can pray that the vocations continue to find there way.

Also thank you for the corrected figures regarding the AOA. I did not have a source close at hand to refer to.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Originally posted by Father Anthony:
From what I have been told by different hierarchs regarding the possibility of shortages, is that we are holding our own right at the moment. There was a period of time about a decade ago that was for a while in which the ordinations were few and the retirements and deaths were more. I know that there is no real surplus, but one can pray that the vocations continue to find there way.
My unscientific, anecdotal and no hard evidence impression was basically as you say. No shortage, no surplus, but meeting the need.

In our small jurisdiction I regularly see one or two ordinations in the Messenger when it comes out.

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