www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Altar Girls

I offer this [yorktonredemptorists.com] for your consideration, from the Yorkton Redemptorists (UGCC).

Dear OrthoMan,

I know this is off topic, but can you clarify this? How are they "latinized"?

They just look like Greek-style vestments to me, and, from the cut and fabric, they seem to be from American Church Supply...

Dave

I agree with Tony. BTW aren't all liturgical offices outside the altar (reader, cantor) open to women? ISTM, that evn the office of Candle-bearer would be open to women, since candle-bearers are not altar servers. The sticharion is the baptismal garment, so the white sticharion is an appropriate garment for any of the faithful.

What we call altar servers are in fact subdeacons. Strictly speaking, subdeacons are the only minor clerics allowed in the altar during the liturgical services.

Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:

Quote

ISTM, that evn the office of Candle-bearer would be open to women, since candle-bearers are not altar servers.

Fr Deacon John,

Is the candle-bearer the same as the girl I see carrying the trojca, wearing street clothes (outside the Holy Place), during Divine Liturgy at a Byzantine Ruthenian Church?

Paul

I find this a bit less shocking, as the girls may be in robes, but they are outside and not in a church. In the link I posted, not only are they wearing robes but assisting the priest with the Holy Things.

This is not quite correct. Strictly speaking, subdeacons are the only minor clergy who may touch the altar, open and close the Holy Doors and curtain. Any minor clergy may enter the altar with a blessing to serve, but only a subdeacon may touch, place, remove, etc. things from the altar (besides deacons, priests, bishops, i.e. "major clergy").

The first of the minor orders, is, in fact, acolyte whose specific task was to be a candle-bearer at the Liturgy in the altar, for entrances, etc. and the chiertesia of his order enables him to do so.

[I find this a bit less shocking, as the girls may be in robes, but they are outside and not in a church. In the link I posted, not only are they wearing robes but assisting the priest with the Holy Things.]

Diak: Show me or prove to me they came out from the Sanctuary (behind the Iconostasis) and I'll be the second one to complain (you being the first). But until then they did nothing more than hold the red cloth WHILE THE PRIEST AND DEACON DISPENSE THE HOLY GIFTS! It was the Deacon that was assisting the priest with the Holy Things!

Your comment concerning the picture of the girls dressed in Acolyte vestments is OK because they are outside the church makes no sense. Are you insinuating they put on the vestments when they left the church and then took them off when they re-entered?

In my parish we don't have young girls assisting by holding the red cloth. But on those occassions
like weekday Liturgies when there is a shortage of men some of the older women will hold the cloth. We also have women read the hours, and as I have sated, on occassion read the Epistle, sing in the choir, and the young children (INCLUDING THE GIRLS) are taught to ring the bells if they so desire when they reach the age of about eight. They love it! And of course, on occassion, the Sunday School kids (INCLUDING THE GIRLS) will take the collection.

Makes them feel like they are participating AND AT NO TIME WILL YOU FIND ANY OF THEM IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES!

OrthoMan

Frankly, both are vested, Bob, and I don't see your point.

So, what are they doing if they are not assisting? Holding a cloth which, if some is spilled, will hold the Holy Things is most certainly assisting with the Holy Things.

I don't like either scenarios, frankly, with my Old Believer sentiments coming out once again.

If we are to foster vocations to the priesthood and minor orders for our young men, THEY need to be assisting the priest, inside and outside the altar.

The point is, female servers are present in both the UGCC and Orthodox churches. Where they stand physically is semantics, as they are most certainly serving at the Divine Liturgy in both scenarios. Distinctions of degrees of serving to justify one over the other aside, both scenarios indeed include female servers, a practice to which I disagree.

[So, what are they doing if they are not assisting? Holding a cloth which, if some is spilled, will hold the Holy Things is most certainly assisting with the Holy Things.]

So then, during weekday Liturgies when there are no men around, are you saying the priest should refuse to distribute the Holy Gifts because a woman is not allowed to hold the cloth (which you see as assisting [and i disagree] in dispensing Holy Communion)?

Once again, prove to me these girls came from behind the Iconostatis and I will agree with you.

Also, I don't see the white robes as vestments. In many Orthodox Chruches (especially the Greeks) the entire choir are in robes. Are they also vested?

There are distinct vestments for an Altar servers within the eastern churches (which the girls are wearing in the UGCC picture). In the Orthodox picture they are white robes (which I have an objection to) though I do not classify them as vestments.

OrthoMan

Chtec wrote: "...I don't believe what I see either: they should be wearing babushkas..."

But they OBVIOUSLY AREN'T MARRIED, they can't wear babushkas yet, they have to wear party first... or at least flower wreaths...

No. In the photos from the UGCs the girls are indeed vested in the same fashion and garment (sticharion, the usual garment for serving) as the altar boys. In the Orthodox parish's photos the ARE NOT vested in the same way (they are wearing albs not sticharions) as the boys (who wear sticharions) and neither is their function the same. Neither are they serving side-by-side with the boys.

They are not altar servers as they are not serving within the realm of the altar.

This link ahows a photo of a girl holding a Trojca during the Holy Gospel at a BRC.

BTW What does the Trojca symbolize?

http://www.olphnm.org/images/DSC03240.jpg

Christ is our peace.

Paul

Are they not serving? They are. Not in the altar, but most certainly "serving" in any reasonable sense of the word. They are assisting the priest in the administering the Mysteries, while wearing distinctive non-street garments, yes? I generally consider that "serving" without all of the added superfluous distinctions of levels of serving.

Albs, smocks, whatever, they are vested. Perhaps I need a reminder about the history of vestments? DIFFERENT clothing to distinguish service in Church from ordinary clothing.

Furthermore, they are holding the cloth, thereby assisting the priest in administering the Mysteries, and thus performing a function once only reserved for male acolytes, according to venerable Orthodox tradition.

You can continue to make infinitely finer distinction in terminology, and try to justify the OCA practice as somehow different and somehow acceptable compared to the UGCC, pointing to one as right vs. one as wrong according to whatever various levels of servng ( rather scholastic, I must say).

But the basic fact remains, they are serving, they are girls, they are wearing some sort of non-street clothes specifically for this service. I don't like either practice illustrated here nor think it is appropriate. I am disappointed the OCA hierarchy (and the Antiochians, who allow a similar practice) allow this to happen as much as I am at the UGCC and BCC hierarchs who allow this to happen.

Bob, your parish must not be doing something right if they can't get young men into ministry for serving, minor orders, etc. My parish never, including weekdays, ever has the priest serving alone without at least one male to receive a blessing to assist.

Is this horse beat to death yet?

Archpriest Avvakum, pray to God for us.

[Bob, your parish must not be doing something right if they can't get young men into ministry for serving, minor orders, etc. My parish never, including weekdays, ever has the priest serving alone without at least one male to receive a blessing to assist.]

I resent your comment Diak. During the week young teenage and early twenty aged males are in school and college where they are expected to be. Same as any other church no matter what denomination it is. In todays age not everyone lives around the church or even in close proximity to it. especially in the cities. Many of our parishioners travel 40 miles or more to come to church. And many of the elderly who come on Sundays are driven by family members or other younger members of the congregation who are all working during the week.
In a parish our size we may average 27 to 35 attendees at a weekday Liturgy. Most of the time there is at least one or two males but not all the time.

Nice try at avoiding answering my question though.

Orthodoc

Bob, I will answer again. The girls are serving within the temple, regardless of exact location within the temple, and are vested in specific clothing for that purpose, and are assisting the priest in the administering of the Mysteries. That is serving by any stretch of the imagination. This is within the historical service of the acolyte, which according to Orthodox tradition, were males blessed for this purpose.

I travel 60+ miles to the main Greek Catholic parish in our area, so I am familiar with commuting. Our nearest parishoner is one mile, which then jumps to about 10 for the next, and then further.

We still manage a minimum of one server (usually two) for weekday services and 4-5 on Sundays beside myself as subdeacon.

I meant no insult, only an observation compared with my own parish experience.

It is highly un Orthodox and most probably only a foot in the door to a flood of other horrors.
Stephanos I