www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Altar Girls

I think you are right about that. I remember in the Latin Rite, many priests and bishops were winking at the regulations that forbade altar girls. When the altar girls became widespread enough, the argument to Rome was along the lines of, "everybody has them anyway, so we might as well legalize it." I hope your Orthodox bishops have more spine than the Latin ones have displayed.

Orthoman,

I am curious about something...If you were present at these weekday Divine Liturgies, and seen that there are no males to help serve, why are you not asking the priest for a blessing to assist him? If he is reduced to lay females to help, no doubt he would welcome your assistance...In parishes I know of, such as you describe, there are frequently gentlemen in their 70s serving in altar.

Too often, the "reason" for women serving is that men do not feel like asking to serve...and, I mention this in general, as it is known that you are a benefactor of your parish...but, lately, men seem to write checks, rather than perform duties. It has been my experience that they wait to be asked to serve, rather than offering their service. Women tend to ask what needs doing, and so are told...with eleborate "justification" for allowing them to act, if necessary...

Gaudior, who believes that it is a feminist trend that needs to be discouraged. Men, step up!

[I am curious about something...If you were present at these weekday Divine Liturgies, and seen that there are no males to help serve, why are you not asking the priest for a blessing to assist him? If he is reduced to lay females to help, no doubt he would welcome your assistance...In parishes I know of, such as you describe, there are frequently gentlemen in their 70s serving in altar.]

First of all if you read what I wrote you will see that I in no way indicated this was a normal situation in my parish. I did however, give it as an exception that occurs at times. Mainly to bring about a point I was making. On the times I was present I went up and held one side of the cloth. Usually an older woman would come up and hold the other side. I see nothing wrong in what she did. Either did my priest. I emailed this whole question to him and this is his reply to me -

[As long as their duties keep them out of the sanctuary I suppose its OK. However,it could be the beginning of something unfavorabe if it gets out of hand. I have had in the past a girl holding the oil after Liturgy (Feast Day) when I had no one to serve with me. Also,in the past women have held the cloth...older women. Again in this area, I believe many priests would hold the line if a female was in her time of the month....Its hard to say.� Fr.Dan]

Orthodoc

Dear Orthoman...

That was why the deaconnesses had to be 40 (generally past childbearing, and menstruation) in ancient times...

I think any priest who asked if a woman was menstruating before allowing her to assist would risk broken teeth, as "everyone" knows that that is old fashioned nonsense, and the Fathers who prohibit women from receiving Communion hten are all sexist pigs with antiquated notions....

Best, I think, not to allow, unless woman clearly elderly, as in your example.

Gaudior, who is now going into the Witness Protection Program for further posts...

Did you know that when John Paul the Pope of Rome gave the go ahead on female altar servers, he slipped in the bath and broke his hip.Hummmm!
Stephanos I

Guys, if you are going to have Orthodox female altar servers, you are going to have to do it right, the way the Latins do. First, you need women who are old. They need to be a mildly feeble and move sedately, but with enough testosterone to have that "butch" look with short-cropped hair. :p For this you need retired women. Next, they must be heavy so they gracefully move about the sanctuary like the dancing hippos in Fantasia. :rolleyes: Of course, they must wear pantsuits, and excess makeup to the point of looking like old female impersonaters. Parts of their bodies must have long ago succumbed to gravity, and droop gracefully toward the floor. And they must display attitude when serving in the sanctuary. Yes, fellow Easterners, there is much we could learn from our progressive Latin brothers and sisters.

Paul,

While the lexicographers are debating the definitions of "serving" and "vestments", your question seems to have gotten lost. This commentary is also from the website of Our Lady of Perpetual Help in NM.

Note that the above is accompanied by a photo of another young lady, also holding the Trojca

http://www.olphnm.org/Images/troj11.jpg

Many years,

Neil

Diak,

By this statement, are you saying that you believe that girls should not be candle-bearers?

If anyone out there has seen a good study on this topic of using Handmaidens, I would appreciate you sharing this info. with me. My own Orthodox pastor is working on a program to have girls involved in the Divine Services in some way and I have raised some objections (along with others) about this. Based on the information in this thread and other research which I am gathering, I would like to present a small coherent study on this question to assist him in putting together our parish's program. I think he is open to this assistance. My goal would be to help him to accomplish the objective of including girls yet in a way that does not contradict our Orthodox Tradition or Canons.

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. Ghazar Der-Ghazarian

p.s. Andrew mentioned Canons forbidding women Deacons from serving the altar, could he or someone give me a reference for this?

May I summarize?

1. Females are not permitted within the Holy Place (an ancient canon prohibits this). It seems reasonable and practical that women may clean the Holy Place outside the Divine Liturgy.

2. Women are permitted to function outside the Holy Place as a cantor, reader (epistle), and bear the trojca.

3. I'm unsure if a woman may wear an alb/sticharion to perform any of these functions. Common sense tell me the answer is no

In a nutshell, is this correct?

Paul

hmm, maybe this wasn't the thread where someone asked about this, but I'm not having luck finding another, and this seems like as good a place as any

An article on the role of deaconesses in the Coptic Church

The Third Way [weekly.ahram.org.eg]

Many years,

Neil

The trouble is that these people who are pushing these things have an agenda. #1 get the female altar servers = #2 well if they can do that why not have them as deacons = #3 well if they can be deacons why not priests = #4 and if that then Bishops.
Believe me this was the protestant mode of operation in their churches and you see where it has led. (Now practicing homosexual ministers)
Buyer beware!

Stephanos I

The previous Latin Code of 1917 expressly forbade females serving at the altar. With the promulgation of the revised Code in 1983,that express prohibition was not to be found.

Canon 813.2 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law declared: "The minister serving at Mass may not be a woman, unless, there being no male available, for a just reason and with the proviso that the woman answer from a distance and in no case come up to the altar (ad altare accedat)." This was not included in the 1983 Code. In addition, the need of an altar server was also deleted in the revised Code of 1983. Canon 813.1 of the 1917 Code stated: "A priest is not to celebrate Mass without a minister to serve and answer him." The corresponding canon in the revised Code is Canon 906 and reads: "Except for a just and reasonable cause, a priest is not to celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice without the participation of at least one member of the faithful."

Yet even as late as 1980 the Sacred Congregation of Sacraments and Divine Worship issued the instruction, Inaestimabile Donum , which read in part, "There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers" (n. 18).

However in 1994 that same congregation, now renamed the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, issued a communique in response to the dubium (question)- "Whether, among the liturgical functions that lay persons, men or women, may exercise according to Canon 230.2 of the Code of Canon Law, may also be included service at the altar (servitium ad altare)." Included among the functions of Canon 230.2 are the "temporary assignment to the role of lector in liturgical actions" as well as "the roles of commentator, cantor or other such, in accordance with the law."

The interpetation of that canon is included in that communique that follows:

VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS [ewtn.com]

Leave it to lawyers to provide the snafu.

Does anyone know of any ancient Eastern Canons against women on or near the altar?

ByzanTN, that is truly hilarious and, I hate to say, right on the money!

Does anyone know where the Latin Church gets off throwing these canons to the wind and permitting females to serve at the altar? Did these ancient canons not apply to the Latin Church as well as to the Eastern Churches?

Total disregard for canonical traditions really pees me off!

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

I respect and share your concern for tradition in the church handed down throught the ages, but tradition is not set in stone.

Our Lord gave the Church a living tradition through the apostles and their sucessors (bishops), with Peter and his sucessor being the head.

Church law may be changed, Divine law (dogma) may not be changed.

The Holy Spirit continues to work in the Church. As recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, the Spirit has surprises for believers.

God bless you in your faith,

Paul