www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Altar Girls

Dear Bob,

I have the honor of somewhat knowing Gaudior, and I can tell you with all assurity that this poster is VERY Orthodox! :rolleyes:

Alice, who is amused by any assumptions to the contrary

Thank you, Alice, for the testimonial! (bows)

Gaudior, authenticated

Brethren,

First off, I agree with Orthoman that any attempt to make this a denominational issue is absurd. This practice runs across the lines of all of our Churches. Lets not be sectarian.

Now, lets face it, the "ministry" (if it can even be called that) of altar boys, acolytes (or whatever name you prefer) is NOT an Apostolic institution. Some along the way thought it would be a good idea to include young men and boys. We did not receive this from the Apostles. Now the original motives were obviously to prepare these young men for a possible life of service in the priesthood. Yet the question is, are we bound to this motive and decision for all times? Some along the way decided to do something novel by having very young boys to help in the Service. Who's to say we are forbidden from doing something likewise novel by allowing girls to have some special role to play in the Liturgy? To act like some sacred Church institution is being destroyed by this is silly because altar servers are not an office or institution at all. Just a nice idea.

Not only this, but every one in the Divine Liturgy is playing a part. So one can not argue this is only the role of men.

Finally, it has always been the position of the East that our laity has an essential voice in Church affairs. Obviously a large amount of members of all of our Churches want this. Why shouldn't our Church leaders head their request if there is nothing essentially wrong or heretical about their request and desire?

Everyone should go along with this. Latin-Roman Catholics and Papally-minded Eastern Catholics should be happy because the Bishop of Rome has o.k.'d it. Eastern Orthodox and the "Orthodox with Rome" group should be happy because it is the will of the laity. I don't understand all the objections. The only group that should be alarmed is the alarmist Traditionalist types (sedavacantists et all).

Altar girls are not heretical. At worst the concept might just be a stupid one. At best it might be an example of the Church adapting to modern times without adopting worldliness.

Again, no one has even produced the ancient Church Canon which explicitly forbids girls serving in anyway during the Divine Liturgy.

Was it altar girls in 19th Century Russia? No, it was not! Is outrage! Is new calendarist heresy!

I have always been under the impression that Acolytes (nka Altar boys) was and still is a primer for eventual holy orders. It seems that the role of Latin Catholics regarding the role of Acolytes have changed over the years. Granted that only a very small portion of Acolytes ever become priests it notheless points out the significance of the role of Acolyte. On the subject of females helping out outside of the Sanctuary is quite normal in some male challenged parishes. I see no problem as long as there are no able bodied males who can handle the chores of Orthos,Hours,Epistle readings, and the like. As long as it dosnt require the female to be inside the Holy of Holies it isnt a violation of canon law.

Incidentaly, there is a Roman Catholic Church near me which is now exclusively served by young lady altar servers. I inquired why there were no male counterparts and my answer was the boys seeing the girls taking their place were reluctant to continue in this role. It was pier pressure to relinquish this position to the young women.

JoeS

JoeS:
I have noticed the same. Boys that age don't want to do what the girls are doing, since it's not cool. As the girls have moved into altar serving, the boys have dropped out.

Joe,

That's why I support keeping the liturgical roles of girls and boys seperate.

Dear Ghazar,

While your post makes some very good points, ( ), we need to emphasize for those that may not know, that in the Eastern Orthodox churches, females are not allowed in the sanctuary (in other words, behind the icon screen). In the Roman Catholic church where there is no iconostasis to separate the altar, this rule does not seem to exist.

I remember a farewell mass for parents at my daughter's RC High School, where all the graduating girls were sat at the 'sanctuary', and they said prayers, read scripture, lit candles, brought the 'gifts', etc., somehow it didn't seem 'outrageous' because of the looseness of the altar setting. If I were, on the other hand, to see girls doing any of this in my Orthodox church, I guess it would seem terribly untraditional and wierd to me THERE, but not 'abusive' as long as they didn't step foot BEHIND the altar.

In any case, this tradition of not serving in any way around the altar is so ingrained in Greek Orthodox communities, that really no one questions it or cares. The girls can sing in junior choirs if they like, and it seems to suit them just fine.

I wonder if alot of these altar type girls in Eastern churches comes from mothers who are somewhat feminist...I have learned through the years of raising children, that if YOU question things (such as traditions, rules, etc.) or persons (such as priests, teachers, etc.) and make things an issue, children will follow suit. If YOU accept things, they will also accept them....( well--atleast until they go to college, in which they generally like to act as if they don't accept anything you approve of! LOL! ) YET, for all my children's new found university 'adulthood', I still haven't heard the question ANYTHING about our Orthodox male/female traditions.

I hope my points made sense!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Ghazar...

If somehow you got the impression from my posts that I was denying that this PROBLEM is multi-jurisdictional, I apologize. And no one said that altar girls are a HERESY. Just wrong. Heresy is a word that is incorrectly applied to too many things these days!

But as you pointed out, the Vatican has sanctioned this practice for the Catholic Churches, if there is no other alternative.

As for the Orthodox Churches...no sorry, the Church is NOT a Democracy...in the sense that the laity can pick and choose the Canons which they wish to adhere to this week. If you are looking for that, try the Protestant Church next door! If at the next Ecumenical Council, the bishops, patriarchs, etc. decide that this ancient Canon should be changed, then, of course, they can do so! However, they have not done so, and the Canons specify MALE. Until this is changes, than ANY OTHER FEEL-GOOD INNOVATION IS WRONG!

As you pointed out, everyone is to participate in the Divine Liturgy, but the way in which they do so does not have to be infringing on territory reserved for men!

Appropriate teaching might ensure that the girls feel valued members of the community, and not succumb to the idea that they are second class citizens because they are female.

Bear in mind, that you would not try to get your daughter into BOY SCOUTS...but suggest GIRL SCOUTS instead! Does this mean that your daughter is a second class citizen because she can't join BOY Scouts?? Of course NOT! So, please tell me why we need to make the dear little girls feel sad because they are not BOYS, to serve in altar? A simple pointing out that this is reserved to BOYS should suffice! Followed by age appropriate suggestions for the girl to help serve her Church!

Any girl who has a true vocation will seek tonsure as a nun...breaking the canons to let her "help" will not help in the long run, as anyone who reads those canons as an adult and sees that they were allowed to do what was prohibited because of a liberal or modernizing priest is only going to get turned off by this example of clergy disregarding the Canons!

And, with all due respect, it is too easy to label someone a "Traditionalist" in a perjorative sense when they disagree with liberal innovations. Traditionalist in this case simply means that they are upholding the teaching of their church! Which, in fact, we are all called to do! And, if an Ecumenical Council declares altar girls to be OK, then I shall defend that...but not until! A single priest, of even a single bishop who advances innovations may be wrong!

The Orthodox Church has, in some jurisdictions, altar girls...

Canonically, it should NOT.

Gaudior, who suggests those who do NOT know, check the Canons themselves...I have done extensive reading, now it's your turn!

Dear ByzanTN,

Is truly outrage, and I be even daring to say, is ABOMINATION of heretical churches of new calendar!

Alice

Dear Gaudior,

First of all, none of my comments were directed towards you. I kept them all general and only said if someone tries to make this a denominational issue. So you have no need to explain.

Secondly many of the things you explain to me, I never said and already agree with you on, so please don't jumpt to conclusions. You're preaching to the choir.

Now, I did not say the Church was a "demoncracy" only that as many, many Orthodox theologians insist, the laity have an essential voice in Church affairs. The Church is not a democracy, nor is it a bastion of clericalism or a dictatorship. That can be found elsewhere too.

Finally, I will accept not one more argument from you or anyone else about "breaking canons" until you can show us which canon you are referring too. If you can't do this, your argument is just based on hear-say. I trust such a canon is out there, but I can not receive your claims until I see it.

I think it is also VERY important to point out here that in the Orthodox church only those men and boys who are approved can enter the Holy of Holies. Just because you are male does not make you eligible to enter this domain. The Priest must approve your NEED to be there for whatever reason. So the majority of males in our parish are not authorized to enter behind the Iconostasis.

JoeS

Quite correct!

Gaudior, pleased that this point was made

You know, if I read the Latin Rite regulations correctly, laity have no right to be in the sanctuary area without first getting permission from the priest. Of course, it's never enforced that I know of, at least since Vatican II.