www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Altar Girls

Thank you Paul!

Now, we also know that deaconesses in their time were ordained at the altar. :rolleyes:

Can you also tell us where it is forbidden for a woman to serve in any capacity in the church? St.Paul addresses this, but I mean in the canons.

Thanks!

Tony

Paul,

Thank you. Your eyes are sharper than mine.

Many years,

Neil

Tony,

I am not a Reader in my Church. As to women, they should not fulfil that function, as lead chanter, and definitely should not be tonsured as reader!

And, Diak's arguments are not inconstent, concerning the holiness of the temple. The only inconsistency is to say that altar boys may only serve BEHIND the iconostasis, and so they need to resort to girls to serve in front of it. Again, the office is taper-bearer, not altar boy, as you are no doubt aware. It is clear that the sanctuary is "hallowed ground" so to speak, but the rest of the temple is certainly no less holy! However, Diak is correct that the area behind the iconostasis is more representative of Heaven than the Nave, which is representative of the Earth. I fail to see how having "handmaidens" fills any need in the Church. For nearly 2000 years, no one has seen this need. Strange, isn't it? Only now, when women choose to advance the women's rights agenda all the way to the priesthood, do we see this.

Gaudior, who doe not think this innovation is necessary

Gaudior,

So you neither read nor lead in the chanting?

Tony

Gaudior,

You said Put that together with the canon.

Who is being inconsistent?

Tony

No, I have never been a Reader, nor even an untonsured lead chanter.

Gaudior, who also does not sing in the choir, for which God is thankful

It is not inconsistent. The minor orders are all still referred to with male pronouns, and other references to them being male. Further, as I understand it, the correct translation is "approach" the altar, which would seem to negate standing on the steps in front of the Royal doors doing ANYTHING...

And, lest anyone points out that women do receive Communion, in the same spot, they are liturgically bidden to that spot, for the purpose of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which all Christians are called upon to do.

I simply do not see why it is liturgically necessary to create a new group of servers, when those already mentioned in the Canons are sufficient for the purpose?

"Handmaidens" are a way to appease feminists, and make the Church more "relevent" to the laity, rather than teach all to help in various needful ways.

Gaudior, who fails to understand why people cannot realize that there ARE things that women cannot do, in the Church, and that does NOT mean that they are second-class citizens.

Then I must have you confused with someone else. I am happy to see that in your parish no woman ever reads nor chants not usurps any any man's role and is not "infringing on territory reserved for men!"

Tony,

Oh, we have women in our choir, who wear street cloths. We have no female chanters, at least not in my particular church.

Gaudior, who knows nothing is perfect, and who is at least thankful for the many men who do continue to sing in the choir...those blessed by God with the voices to praise him!

Gaudior,

For the sake of clarity here I would like to unpack the above a bit. The "new group of servers" to which you refer are "handmaidens." Correct?

Which are "those already mentioned in the Canons?" The minor orders?

Where do altar boys fit in?

Tony

Correct: The "new group of servers" = handmaidens

And, "those already mentioned in the Canons" are the minor orders, inclusive of subdeacons, accolytes, or taper bearers. (In my parish, one of our altar "boys" is a subdeacon)

Historically, the altar servers at large have been tonsured as taper-bearers, as I am certain you know, though the tonsure is not used universally, these days, with the bishops preferring to tonsure only the older boys who have served in altar for some time.

Gaudior, who apologizes for the confusion

I appreciate Alice's postings, as the only woman I can identify by "handle" to have weighed in on this discussion.

Women have an important role in the spiritual life of the church. The problem, I fear, is that that role has been confused somewhat in modern times. Who does what in church is not a matter of "rights" - as it is a matter of tradition and rules based upon tradition. Tradition is central to our concept of "church." Tradition makes everyone feel connected to the continuous community of "church," in the communion of Saints.

The holy women of the Gospels teach us a lot about holiness and humility. In many ways, they show us a level-headedness, hopefulness and steadiness of faith at times lacking in the holy men of the time. I know that my mom (and her mom before her) kept an icon of St. Veronika in the room where we all ate and hung out. The lesson they taught us about St. Veronika was that she was inspiring because she was brave and kind and not afraid to give comfort to Our Lord. My old Orthodox baba, who was a widow with ten children and who was able through hard work and loving attention to give them every opportunity, found St. Veronika inspiring. She tried to live in imitation of the great saints. In her old age - she was pushing 80 - she even took in an unwed teenage mother who needed help. (The girls parents wanted to send her away for an abortion and the girl wanted the baby.) To me, that is in line with the spirituality of a woman of virtue - to give comfort and peace where it isn't.

Now, on point, I don't favor altar girls or female altar servers - but they don't have these in any of the Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic churches in my area, either. (The local Roman Catholic diocese does not permit them.) I do favor engaging girls in other, appropriate aspects of church life and activities. And I do favor teaching girls specifically about the great women saints.

Now I am pretty conservative, but perhaps not as much as some of you. I have held the Troika in the aisle on Good Friday during the reading of the Gospels, as have other women, and at the direct request of the deacon. I felt a little funny at first. I actually asked if it was "really okay" to do that. He said, "yes - and we need help." I looked around and realized that it is almost all women and girls who show up on Good Friday during the daytime (the men who were there were mostly elderly, with their wives, and in need of assistance - so they only held the Troika for the shortest readings if at all). Frankly, I think women are more likely to take a few hours off from work or school or from home duties to go. I know it is difficult for me to schedule sometimes (I'm a lawyer with a full plate), but I do. It's by far the most moving experience of the church year.

Annie, thank you for those words of wisdom...

That is exactly what I meant about educating women appropriately, although you put it far better than I ever could!

Gaudior, peaceably

It is always good to keep in mind that any participation by a female be it Reader, Hours, or holding the Communion cloth is extraordinary. That is, they have been requested by the priest to assist when a male cannot perform this particular duty. We have an assistant choir leader who is very competent in reading the Epistle and also happens to be a female. She did have to fill during a weekday Liturgy at the last minute when it was found out that the designated reader had an emergency and could not make it. It went very well if I say so myself. Apparently, this female reader fills in from time to time in cases such as this. I have no problem with this. In fact, I am quite comforted in knowing that we have such a person.

The obvious question: Does she come into the santuary for the blessings both before and after the readings? The answer is no. She comes up to the steps in front of the Holy Doors and receives her blessing there.

JoeS

[Now I am pretty conservative, but perhaps not as much as some of you. I have held the Troika in the aisle on Good Friday during the reading of the Gospels, as have other women, and at the direct request of the deacon.]

I think its great! But according to Diak and Gaudior you were performing the duties of an 'Altar Girl'! Or are we now to call you a 'Taper Bearer' which Gaudior insists is a minor order.

Let me reiterate once more. I am also dead set against 'Altar Girls' But I still don't see two girls holding a cloth under the chin of a Communicant for maybe 10 to 15 minutes (depending on the Communion line) out of an hr and a half service, never going behind the Iconastasis or wearing standard acolyte vestments as 'Altar Girls'!

case closed!

OrthoMan