The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Anatoly99, PoboznyNeil, Hammerz75, SSLOBOD, Jayce
6,186 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 536 guests, and 118 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,534
Posts417,715
Members6,186
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Is it true that in recent years the Melkites and Antiochians nearly sealed a pact for unity? I would like to know more about this and what happened to the agreement? Can someone give me the details? How long ago? Where can I read about it? Is it likely to come about still?

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Tammy

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 478
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 478
Are you referring to this, perhaps?

http://www.melkite.org/sa3.htm

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
O
Member
Member
O Offline
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
http://www.east2west.org/discus/messages/7/66.html?1067803754


The Eastern Catholic FAQ: Ecumenism: Zoghby Initiative By Admin (Admin) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 02:09 pm:
What was the Zoghby initiative? Why did it not work?

Archbishop Elias Zoghby proposed "dual communion," in which the Melkite Church would simultaneously be in communion with Rome and the Antiochian Orthodox Church. This step was seen by both Rome and the Orthodox as being too radical - although there is significant historical precedent for it. Nonetheless, the Melkite Patriarch and his Synod have been overwhelmingly supportive of his ideas.

Double communion (which is also called dual communion) has been a historical reality from time to time. Well into the 17th century the Melkite Church had dual communion with both Rome and Constantinople. There are several other examples as well.

Today both Rome and Constantinople reject the option of dual communion. Their attitudes could change on this, but it isn't likely.


----------

Melkite Initiative and an Orthodox response -

https://www.byzcath.org/faith/documents/melkite_initiative_2.htm

In October, 1996 the Holy Synod of the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarchate issued a statement which included these concerns on the Melkite proposal: "In this regard, our Church questions the unity of faith which the Melkite Catholics think has become possible. Our Church believes that the discussion of this unity with Rome is still in its primitive stage.� The first step toward unity on the doctrinal level, is not to consider as ecumenical, the Western local councils which the Church of Rome, convened, separately, including the First Vatican Council.

"And second the Melkite Catholics should not be obligated to accept such councils.� Regarding inter-communion now, our Synod believes that inter-communion cannot be separated from the unity of faith.� Moreover, inter-communion is the last step in the quest for unity and not the first." In a letter to the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America,�Metropolitan Philip also said: "Please be advised that, while we pray for unity among all Christians, we cannot and will not enter into communion with non-Orthodox until we first achieve the unity of faith.� As long as this unity of faith is not realized, there cannot be intercommunion.� We ask you to adhere to the instructions which you receive from our office and hierarchs."

Next is the text of the letter with Rome's commentary on the Melkite Initiative. It has been translated from the French by Ken Guindon. It was reviewed by His Grace Bishop Nicholas Samra (who made a few corrections) and permission was given to publish this in English:

=========

Roman Catholic Response -

Congregation for the Eastern Churches
Prot. No. 251/75
June 11, 1997

His Beatitude
Maximos V HAKIM
Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarch of Antioch and of all the East,
of Alexandria and of Jerusalem.

Your Beatitude,

The news of the project for "rapprochement" between the Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarchate and the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch has given rise to various echoes and comments in the public opinion.

The Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith, the Congregation for the Eastern Churches, and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity have made an effort to study and closely examine the areas which fall within their competence in this domain; and the heads of these Dicasteries have been charged by the Holy Father to express some considerations to Your Beatitude.

The Holy See is greatly interested in and encourages initiatives which favor the road to a complete reconciliation of the Christian Churches. She appreciates the motivation behind the efforts undertaken for several decades by the Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarchate, which is trying to hasten the coming of this full communion so greatly desired. The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches recognizes the duty for every Christian (Can. 902), which becomes for the Eastern Catholic Churches a special duty (munus) (Can. 903), whose exercise will be governed "through special norms of particular law while the Roman Apostolic Church functions as the moderator for the universal church" (Can. 904).

This is all the more true for two communities which see themselves as being closely united because of the ties of common origin and common ecclesiastical tradition, as well as by a long experience of common initiatives which no doubt place them into a privileged situation of proximity.

The Church's desire is to find adequate ways and means to progress further along the road of brotherly understanding and, to encourage new structures which further such progress towards full communion.

Pursuing such goals, Your Patriarchate is motivated by a sensibility and a knowledge of the situation and an experience which are peculiarly its own. The Holy See desires to contribute to this process by expressing some considerations which she believes will eventually help the future progress of this initiative. The Dicasteries involved appreciate very much that common pastoral initiatives are undertaken by Catholics and Orthodox, according to the instructions found in the Directory for the application of the principles and norms for Ecumenism, especially in the areas of Christian formation, of education, a common effort in charity, and for the sharing of prayer when this is possible.

As to experiences of a theological nature, it is necessary to labor patiently and prudently, without precipitation, in order to help both parties to travel along the same road.

The first level in this sharing concerns the language and the categories employed in the dialogue: one must be very careful that the use of the same word or the same concept is not used to express different points of view and interpretations of a historical and doctrinal nature, nor lends itself to some kind of oversimplification.

A second level of involvement necessitates that the sharing of the content of the dialogue not be limited only to the two direct participants: the Patriarchates of the Catholic Greek-Melkites and the Orthodox of Antioch, but that it involve the Confessions with whom the two Patriarchates are in full communion: the Catholic communion for the
former and the Orthodox for the latter. Even the Orthodox ecclesiastical authorities of the Patriarchate of Antioch have brought forth a similar preoccupation. This global implication also will permit averting the risk that some initiatives, meant to promote the full communion at the local level, might give rise to a lack of understanding or suspicions beyond the generosity of the intentions.

Now we consider the elements contained in the profession of faith of his Excellency Kyr Elias Zoghby, Greek-Melkite Catholic Archbishop emeritus of Baalbek, signed in February 1995, and to which numerous hierarchs of the Greek-Melkite Catholic Synod have adhered.

It is clear that this Patriarchate is an integral part of the Christian East whose patrimony it shares. As to the Greek-Melkite Catholics declaring their complete adhesion to the teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the Orthodox Churches today are not in full communion with the Church of Rome, and that this adhesion is therefore not possible as long as there is not a full correspondence in the profession and exercise of the faith by the two parties. Besides, a correct formulation of the faith necessitates a reference not only to a particular Church, but to the whole Church of Christ, which knows no frontiers, neither in space nor in time.

On the question of communion with the Bishops of Rome, we know that the doctrine concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff has experienced a development over time within the framework of the explanation of the Church's faith, and it has to be retained in its entirety, which means from its origins to our day. One only has to think about what the first Vatican Council affirmed and what Vatican Council II declared, particularly in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium Num. 22 and 23, and in the Decree on ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio Number 2.

As to the modalities for exercising the Petrine ministry in our time, a question which is distinct from the doctrinal aspect, it is true that the Holy Father has recently desired to remind us how "we may seek--together, of course--the forms in which this ministry may accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned" (Ut unum sint, 95); however, if it is legitimate to also deal with this on a local level, it is also a duty to do this always in harmony with a vision of the universal Church. Touching this matter, it is appropriate to be reminded that in any case, "The Catholic Church, both in her praxis and in her solemn documents, holds that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is--in God's plan--an essential requisite of full and visible communion" (Ut unum sint, 97).

As to the various aspects of communicatio in sacris, it is necessary to maintain a constant dialogue in order to understand the meaning of the current regulation in force, in the light of underlying theological presuppositions; premature, unilateral initiatives are to be avoided, where the eventual results may not have been sufficiently considered, they could produce serious consequences for other Eastern Catholics, especially for those living in the same region.

In summary, the fraternal dialogue undertaken by the Greek-Melkite Catholic Partriarchate will be better able to serve the ecumenical dialogue to the degree that it strives to involve the entire Catholic Church to which it belongs in the maturing of new sensitivities. There is good reason to believe that the Orthodox in general so share the same
worry, due also to the obligations of communion within their own body.

The Dicasteries involved are ready to collaborate in order to further the exchange of verifications and echoes; they express their satisfaction for these meetings which have been held on this subject with the representatives of the Greek-Melkite Catholic Church, and they hope and wish that these meetings continue and intensify in the future.

Not doubting at all that Your Beatitude would want to share these ideas, we beg you to accept the expression of our fraternal and cordial greetings.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger,� Achille Card. Silvestrini,� Edward Card. Cassidy For more information about this topic please contact the Melkite Church in America

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Tammy,

Whether it is likely to come about at any time in the near future is in God's hands. We still maintain a close relationship with our Antiochian Orthodox brothers and sisters and there is intercommunion between our Churches in the Middle East (and, in other places there, shared use of temples), under an agreement between the two patriarchates that is intended to assure pastoral care of the faithful in areas where one or the other Church doesn't have a priest or there is only a single temple.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 478
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 478
Neil,

I noticed on the Holy Transfiguration web site, it states "Roman Catholics who are baptized and confirmed may share the Holy Eucharist with us, as can Orthodox Christians." This was a bit surprising to me, as there does not seem to be any pastoral reason (since an Antiochian Orthodox Church is nearby). Is this common practice at Melkite Catholic Churches? I'm not debating the policy; I simply ask out of curiosity.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Quote
Originally posted by francis:
I noticed on the Holy Transfiguration web site, it states "Roman Catholics who are baptized and confirmed may share the Holy Eucharist with us, as can Orthodox Christians." This was a bit surprising to me, as there does not seem to be any pastoral reason (since an Antiochian Orthodox Church is nearby). Is this common practice at Melkite Catholic Churches? I'm not debating the policy; I simply ask out of curiosity.
Francis,

The pastoral provision to which I alluded is only in force in the Middle East.

Actually, Orthodox (as well as faithful of the Polish National Catholic Church and the Old Catholic Church - Utrecht Confession/Communion) may receive the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist at any Catholic Church, Eastern or Latin.

I understand that there is a reference made to this in text at the end of the missalettes (?) used in most Latin parishes in the US. The text is generally qualified with words to the effect that, in making any decision to do so, one should adhere to the dictates of one's own Church - which, as a practical matter means that Orthodox Christians should generally refrain from communing in a Catholic church, as their Churches do not ordinarily approve of them doing so.

And, of course, it is licit for Catholics to receive the Mystery of the Holy Eucahrist from an Orthodox priest. However, the Orthodox will not commune Catholics (Eastern or Latin) and Catholics should not attempt to receive the Mystery by misrepresenting their ecclesiality.

As a practical matter, in New England, where there is a particularly fraternal relationship among the parishes and clergy - especially those of the Middle East* - it isn't unknown to see some intercommunion happen on both sides of the fence, with no one blinking an eye. (There is so much intemarriage among the families here, that it's not uncommon to see priests from 3 or 4 different Eastern churches (EC, EO, and OO) offering prayers at the same wake, frequently together.)

Many years,

Neil

*as an example, when we arrived at the Melkite Eparchial residence with His Beatitude, Patriarch Gregory, one of those waiting to greet him was the local Syrian (Antiochene) Orthodox pastor.


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Tammy,

I neglected to mention that a similar pastoral provision regarding intercommunion and sharing of temples exists between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church; I seem to recollect that this particular provision also applies in the States, although it's likely not much relied on any longer, since both Churches have done a good job of erecting temples in the areas where their faithful are situated.

I'm not as certain of it, but I have a recollection that, in the Middle East, a similar arrangement may be in place between the Syriac Catholic and Syrian (Antiochene) Orthodox Churches.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
Dear All:

There is also the point of de facto intercommunion among EC's and Orthodox which, although not formally recognized does occur.

While some might be tempted to maintiain that "intercommunion" is usually "intra-ethnicity" I can tell you from personal experience that this is not always the case.

I have seen a Crowning ceremony be presided over jointly by an EC and an Orthodox priest.

It is politics that keep us apart, pure and simple.

Yours,

hal

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
Dear Neil,

As I understand it, the only Church of the Old Catholics with which there is an official agreement of limited communion with the Catholic Church is the Polish National Catholic Church. The rest of the Old Catholics have given in to the feminist and homosexual agendas. The Polish National Catholic Church is no longer in the Utrecht alliance.

Blessings,
Marduk

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Thanks to all of you for your knowledgeable responses, and for anticipating my next questions! How wonderful it is to have friends in the know on this board. I sure have a lot to learn.

Peace of Christ to all of you,

Tammy

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
We have a huge cross section in our church of Catholics and Orthodox.

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Dear Pani Rose,

Wow! I think that is wonderful! It is almost as if the divisions are healed!

Glory to You, O Lord!

Tammy

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,241
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,241
Sorry to rain on the parade, but....

If we are of the Church, then we obey her leadership, the bishops, unless they have gone into serious doctrinal error or moral scandal on a gross scale. It is fine to query and even challenge their judgements, but not to override them upon our own initiative.

This tendency, to place into effect our own individual judgement (regardless of whether we are lay person or a bishop) above what may only correctly be made as a concilliar decision (i.e. the Synod/Council's authority to declare with whom we are in communion) risks destroying the Apostolic Churches.

The Protestants went this way 500 years ago and now they have more than 2,400 sects in North America alone. Is this what we want for the Apostolic Churches? ...the Church of Nancy, the Church of Thomas, the Church of Andrew? (God forbid)......with Nancy in communion with Thomas but not with Andrew. And with Thomas in communion with Andrew but not with Nancy.....

In the Eastern Christian tradition, only the Council/Synod of Bishops has had the legitimate authority to declare intercommunion. Even then, each Council should consult with neighboring Councils and/or the Council from which they have received their autocephaly (self-administration). Disregard that point and one disregards the very nature of the Church; it is concilliar.

Remember, the Holy Spirit dwells in you (plural) not in you (singular).

It probably safe to say that every participant in this esteemed forum seeks the unity of the Apostolic Churches, but does that mean that we should tout or celebrate something that our leadership has declared to be inappropriate at this time?

Could it be that we are the ones who are playing politics while the bishops are busy dividing issues of faith? It is a question that each of us should seriously ask him or her self.

Or put otherwise, let's get back to the work of the Gospel knowing that Christ will provide, in His time, the signal to declare unity to those whom He has chosen for that task.

In Christ's Concilliar Church,
Andrew, (who does not sit on a Council)

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
While you are busy judging, maybe consider that there is a large group of people that had no church to go to. Now they have a home, have been there for twenty five years or so. No they have not converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, but their children are all Baptised Easteren Catholic. So they are at home, and it is a very well adjusted church. We have had four infants and one adult Baptised last month alone. There were two crownings and two funerals. One year we had eighteen Baptisms, so you tell me what we are doing wrong. The church is growing by leaps and bounds, many Protestant conversions along with Roman Catholics coming in. I can assure you we are not out there looking for them, they just come.

The reason all of this is successful is it is a church that prays! The doors are opened the people are there praying. So the quandires you are trying to present don't exist there.

Pani Rose

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
I wanted to go back and say that I do understand what you are saying about following the rules of the church and the dictates of the bishops, it is very necessary especially in todays climate.

Pani Rose

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Fr. Deacon Lance 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0