www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization EO's Liturgies opened or closed?

I think most Western Cathlic parishes basically have a "open door" policy, meaning almost anyone can walk in and participate in Mass. This includes celebration of Holy Communion, as priests assume anyone approaching knows the rules, etc.

An EO friend tells me that her community is not "open" to anyone that wanders in. She claims that noone with a "Rainbow Sash" for example, would even be allowed into the Liturgy. She also claims that Communion is often refused to persons the EO priest is not sure of, as to membership or obstinate sin.

What's the real story?

What's the practice in Byzantine parishes ?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

No one can speak for each and every priest or parish, however the priest has a solemn duty to control the distribution of the eucharist.

The priest certainly has the power to deny communion to anyone. There are no eucharistic ministers in the eastern churches and the parishes are typically much smaller than a Roman parish. Only ordained clergy may distribute communion, there is a priority of that responsibility as well. If there are enough priests present the deacons will assist, but the deacon will distribute communion as well if there is a need for it. There is a lot of control at the altar.

The pastor will typically know everyone in the regular congregation, and pray for them by name as they receive. A visitor will be identified quickly and someone will probably approach them to ask if they are Catholic (or Orthodox), then they will be advised upon how to receive communion if they are properly disposed. Repeat visitors will be recognized and the priest would probably like to meet them. It is worthwhile to call in advance of your visit to a parish you have never been to, the pastor will then be expecting you and will have satisfied himself about your ability to partake.

Confessions happen before and after liturgical services. The pastor will know if his regular members have not been to confession. Often attendance at vespers is the best way to get in for a confession.

Someone deemed unready to partake will be turned away with a blessing.

People improperly dressed could be refused, individuals flaunting an opposition to church teaching by wearing signs or symbols will probably be refused. People whose behavior, dress or attitude indicates a disrespect for the temple or teachings of the church should expect to be ejected by the ushers.

I would say that your friend is correct.

Michael

Even from a historical Orthodox POV, one cannot justify visitors being barred from attending at least the first part of the liturgy. Now if they are dressed completely inappropriately or behave in an overtly disrespectful way, that might be a different situation, but I believe this would be rare. I also believe that any Catholic Church would also not put up with such nonsense.

There are no parishes that I know of that ask visitors to leave for the Liturgy of the Faithful. Historically, of course, Catechumens were asked to leave at the saying, "Depart Catechumens! All that are Catechumens, depart!", but normally, only to continue their catechesis. I know a few parishes which are restoring this practice, but only in the context of continuing their catechesis in another room or building. With our growing number of adult catechumens in America, it is a real question to consider.

Having said that, Orthodox parishes in America are extremely open to visitors. You may find a few people here or there who will not handle the situation correctly, saying something inappropriate like, "Are you Greek (or Russian, or Serbian, or whatever)?" And when answered with a "no" might inquire, "then why are you here?" Unfortunately, not everyone is with the program. Such comments should be politely ignored and forgiven.

The spirit of the gospel demands that "all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." The only way that will happen is if they "come and see." Barring people from entering the church is not only antithetical to that mission, but in opposition to our Lord's example of embracing sinners, no matter how notorious.

Although only Orthodox Christians will be permitted to receive the eucharist, anyone is welcomed to attend and worship in an Orthodox manner, participating in the service, singing, bowing, crossing themselves, etc... We have several people in our parish currently who come to pray with us, but have no current intention of becoming Orthodox.

You are always welcomed to visit our community, in which you will find a warm, loving welcome.

Priest Thomas

This thread is an answer to a prayer! As many of you are aware, I'm feeling drawn towards the East and have tried to attend Divine Liturgy/Matins/Vespers when possible here in Spokane. The academic year is now pretty much over and I will shortly be returning to my home city where no Byzantine Catholic parish exists. There used to be a mission in Richland, but it seems that it has disbanded. There is, however, and Orthodox mission parish. I had attended Liturgy there before, but was not well-received despite my best efforts to participate in the Liturgy as much as possible.

Well, I take that back... I was at first very well-received (the priest had "visitor radar" and asked me to stand up and introduce myself after Liturgy had ended, then I was promptly invited downstairs and fed until I was stuffed by the nice old ladies who barely spoke a word of English)... until I told the priest that I was a candidate for full reception into the Catholic Church. His demeanor changed in a hurry. Turns out he left the Latin Church at 19 in response to Vatican II and somehow made his way Eastward. I was then told exactly what is "wrong" with the Church and why I should turn Orthodox before it's "too late."

The priest is gone now, and the parish is only able to have Divine Liturgy twice a month when a visiting priest passes through. I guess the question I have is that now the place is under "new management," so to speak, should I attend regularly during the summer to continue my exposure to the Divine Liturgy and the Eastern offices of prayer? Obviously I wouldn't neglect the reality that I am still a Latin Catholic and would faithfully attend Mass in addition to the Orthodox liturgy. Do you think that this new priest will be offended if I tell him that I only want to attend this parish until such time that I can attend a Byzantine Catholic parish again? I don't want to cause any trouble or rub people the wrong way. The Catholic Church is the Catholic Church, East or West, so I would be content to just attend my Latin parish if this will be a big issue. Thank you all again for your advice.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear CatholicNerd,

If you were already an eastern Catholic I believe the canons would allow you to worship with an Orthodox congregation if there was no other option to preserve your Sui Iuris traditions. You would be upfront with the Orthodox mission priest as well, hopefully a smaller congregation would appreciate your participation and financial support. In fact though, you are a Latin inquiring into the eastern church and the code of canons is different for a Latin, so I am not sure what the best approach would be.

If you are truly interested in eastern Catholicism I would suggest that you contact the nearest EC priest in the tradition you are interested in (however distant), explain your predicament and ask his advice.

In Christ,
Michael

I think the welcome you receive in Orthodox churches can vary from church to church. The local Greek Orthodox Church welcomes visitors although they will not allow them to receive communion. However, you can visit and observe all you like, but they will eventually make a case to you that you should become Orthodox. The local OCA church also welcomes all visitors with the same restrictions placed on communion. They seem to accept visitors for what they are, and don't pressure them into "converting." Many have converted to Orthodoxy and unfortunately, some carry quite a bit of baggage with them. As you have already noticed, you can run into a priest or people who are quite bitter about the churches they have left. Some of our Byzantine Catholics visited Orthodox churches when there was no Byzantine church in our area, just because they missed the Divine Liturgy. So go ahead and visit and tell them only what you want them to know. If anyone pressures you to convert, tell them you are looking around, observing, trying to decide, like the Liturgy, and etc. You don't have to make any committments. Just visit and enjoy.

Our priest tells about the homeless lady that came to his last parrish. Every Sunday, in the collection plate was a McDonalds hamburger. He said she was faithful and always shared what she had with God.

So it is hard to say if that person is an angel or just someone wondering in off the streets.

Pani Rose

Dear Pani Rose, Thank you so much for that post! It brought tears to my eyes...would that everyone were that generous!

In His great love for us all,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Thanks, Rose, that was a great story. The Desert Fathers always counsel that the next guest at the door may be an angel of God.

Over the years I've visited many different churches; Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, all types of Evangelicals. Most churches are fairly friendly. I think this has more to do with the personality of the congregation more then the denomination. I've been to churches where the no one spoke to me at all; I've been to churches that were so welcoming they practically ordained me a deacon on the spot.
As far as closed Communions go, even if someone doesn't agree w/ a church's stance, as a visotor I feel I need to respect thier beliefs and costums as a matter of charity.

CatholicNerd: You posted
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I was at first very well-received ... until I told the priest that I was a candidate for full reception into the Catholic Church.

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My question is why it seemed necessary to you to make this known at all on your first visit.

From my own experience, I can say that I studied the Churches that I planned to visit and made myself very familiar with the historical background that made them who they were: especially trying to understand what their "hot buttons" were in relation to other Christian Churches and/or bodies. It seems to me that it is always easier to be ambiguous so as to give as little offense as possible to another when one is in his home--and that is where we visitors are when we visit the church of another.

When we wear our affiliation on our sleeve, we can often give offense even when we do not intend to do so. The reason is that the person welcoming the visitor is left with the question (often unasked and remaining in his mind) of what you are doing there if you are so ready to identify yourself with and join a Church or group that is not part of "us." It might have been better to say that you had heard of the beauty of the Orthodox Liturgy and wanted to experience it yourself. In fact, if you were not a full member of the Catholic Church at that time, you might have said that you were searching for a church home--which you were, though you wouldn't have had to go all the way to saying that you had found it in Rome.

As with any new relationship, it might also have been better to ask more questions about the parish and its faith than to have made statements about oneself.

Just a few thoughts related to being diplomatic when one is a visitor.

In Christ,

BOB

Just jumping in here. I feel that we all (EC, RC, Protestant...) need to be more welcoming to visitors and other faiths as well. You never know where a "new recruit" will come from. It is important to understand that we are all on a journey to Christ. We should all show our best Christian side. I was once a Presbyterian. Now I am Ukrainian Byzantine. I searched for a home for a long time. I was welcomed with open arms into the Byzantine Church and was not pressured to convert. It was stictly my own choice. I attended Divine Liturgy for a year before I made my choice.
I welcomed the time I was given to make my choice.

Glory be to Jesus Christ!
Tari

That would be great if the priest at the UGCC I'm attending was intersted in meeting me (an RC). After eight months, I've only gotten a few people to talk to me. Father seems to sneak out the back. Oh well, I'm not there for conversation, anyhow.

I am thank-ful to Booth for posting. I somehow missed this thread before. But, I want to respond especially to Theophan's kind and wise counsel to our newcomer, CatholicNerd(are you still with us CN?)

Theophan(Bob) wrote:

It seems to me that it is always easier to be ambiguous so as to give as little offense as possible to another when one is in his house -- and that is where we visitors are when we visit the church of another.

and: When we wear our affiliation on our sleeve, we can give offense even when we do not intend to do so.

This is so true and a lesson I have learned from experience. One can, without intending to do so, give offense by subtly or directly acting as if you are checking to see whether their church and faith are good enough for you. It is always better to learn who they are before you tell them who you are, anyway. And you can do that by asking the right questions which will open up the conversation. Better yet just listen to them cause I have found most are very friendly to visitors and want to share with you. Sometimes though I ask questions like, "How long have you been attending here?" And asking about their priests and different roles they play is always a very good ice breaker. Then commenting in a positive way over something you appreciate in the church, like the icons, or the Divine Liturgy, or the grounds, etc. Not necessary to give your resume or Roman or other citizen papers right off the bat unless you are asked. Even then not necessary to go into too many details. Bottom line is let them take the lead, but do let them know you are seeking, exploring, and genuinely interested in their church family. I would also avoid controversial and/or political subjects.

Being a woman I find it pretty easy to chat with the other women about children, grandchildren, and every day things. Food is alway a good topic of conversation in a Byzantine Catholic Church whether you have been there a year or are just visiting and I am guessing it is the same in an Orthodox Church.

My nickel.

Bless your weekend. And, again, thanks Bob.
Mary Jo aka Porter