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This has been a most interesting thread. I really appreciate all of the comments that have been put forward here. This is a subject that has both disturbed and fascinated me to no end. It underscores the true enigma between the preservation of mother cultures and the evangelization and inculturation of Byzantine Christianity into the New World.

I think there is truth in all of the positions here, from Adam's to Hal's. And there is a larger issue of indigenous evangelization intertwined about the whole thing. There are also larger modern culture issues complicating the scene - which have not only caused declines for Greek Catholic parishes but RCs and other Christians as well.

How far do we go without alienating either those who want the mother tongue, and continue to reach out to the vast American populace who need the Gospel and Church and frankly aren't generally interested in experiencing that except in English? There is a real ongoing tension between preservation of the imnmigrant culture and inculturation of the newer.

I have known younger parishoners who won't come anymore pretty much strictly because of language. Some of these are not people who have ditched their Ukie cultural identity, they still have Svyatij Vechir, etc. but represent an educated generation who understands that they want their children to understand liturgy and their faith in their own language.

I know of some who also stay because of language and its power of defining identity. On the other hand I know of new immigrants who want to go to English-speaking parishes to seem like they are trying to "fit in". There are exceptions to every rule in this regard.

While I do agree that language is a definite part of cultural idenitity, it is not the only factor. Language in terms of evangelization is, however, important, as the non-English Greek Catholic parishes is the USA and Canada statistically, as the Admin has well pointed out, are losing numbers, not gaining. St. Cyril and Methodius are great examples of the power of evangelizing in languages understandable to the majority.

But, it is not so clear cut. The Ruthenian Metropolia which has wholeheartedly embraced English 40 years ago is also losing ground. What gives? So it really does come down to more than language. Some English speaking Orthodox jurisdictions have seen growth. What's up with that?

I keep coming back to the OCA while pondering this issue. They have had success attracting Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Albanian, Romanians in both the USA and Canada. They continue to have some success in forming new parishes and missions. The cultural identity is not lost, in fact separate dioceses are made to include everyone.

Like Alex, the plethera of bishops does not bother me at all, either. This has been a mainstay of Orthodoxy for generations. I do fine with all these beards and mitres running around - as long as I stay clear of all of them... wink

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Dear Administrator,

That the Ukies have lost many to assimilation and other Churches - that is a fact, of course. This fact of assimilation and loss of "our people" from our institutions (and to mixed marriages) is the grist for the Ukrainian mill of conferences, congresses, banquets et al. wink

From your point of view, which is a legitimate one, this loss indicates that the "ethnic Church" is slowly collapsing and that ethnicity as a cultural enterprise needs to be reexamined as the integral aspect of church membership that it has been until now.

As I said, that is one, perfectly legitimate interpretation of the statistics of loss.

It is not that I, and others like me, deny the statistics. It is that statistics are always open to more than one interpretation.

And it is our interpretations that give meaning to statistics, not the numbers themselves.

And our interpretations are always grounded on what we already subjectively believe to be true.

Statistics don't really change the way we already think about the relation of culture to religion or church.

Statistics do give shape to agendas of action, but these agendas very in accordance with our world-views that remain the same even before we come to the statistics.

And you know what my view of religion and culture is.

For me and many like me, culture is not only integrally united with religion and our Church - it is something that characterizes its shape, its theology, canonical traditions and even the way we pray and think of God.

Culture cannot therefore be easily removed from the equation here without, at the same time, doing damage to the very nature of our Eastern spirituality.

Our East Slavic ancestors not only accepted Byzantine Christianity (also the result of an amalgam of Greco-Latin spiritual culture), but they also, and in some respects more importantly, put the stamp of their own East Slavic world-view and spiritual values on it. So much so, in fact, that they created a new "blend" so to speak of Byzantine Christianity that is different from other "blends." (O.K., I'll wait for you to go and get your coffee now . . . wink ).

In fact, the East Slavic Christian tradition, that I will call "Kyivan," (without implying "Ukrainian only"), did adapt to other cultures, especially in Asia and Siberia, but without losing its unique perspective and spirituality that is a composite of a number of different historical traditions.

In time, the Kyivan tradition became dissected into a number of East Slavic national churches that we all know and love!

And even these national traditions have left their stamp on the further development of Kyivan Christianity.

On the level of language, there is no threat to the Kyivan tradition of having different languages in its liturgy, any more than it was threatened by the use of Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic.

The Kyivan Church as part and parcel of the Ukrainian Church today constitute a Particular tradition that can be lived - or discarded.

People are free to choose to follow the tradition they have inherited by virtue of their birth in a particular community, or to choose another, or to choose to follow none.

That cannot be ultimately controlled.

The fact that our Church has lost this or that many people to other faith communities or to agnosticism does NOT mean, to us, that somehow our Church itself, the Kyivan tradition as contained within the contemporary Ukrainian Church, needs to "adapt" or lose its historic religious-cultural character in this point or that - or to become part of a larger "Byzantine jurisdiction."

You see, Sir, for us to do that would be to truly commit spiritual-cutlural suicide, to do real damage to our own Church.

The lessened numbers merely means, for us, that there are fewer adherents of our Kyivan-Ukrainian Church in the diaspora.

And we've ultimately know that this would happen.

But it is perhaps because of the fact that our Church is integrally (and now since 1991 even moreso) related to the Church in Ukraine and Europe that we see these losses as "local casualties on a given front" rather than as a herald of ecclesial collapse.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church is not only expanding into Kyiv, southern and eastern Ukraine. There are today UGCC parishes in Kazakhstan and Siberia (of course!).

And we are on better terms with our maligned Orthodox brothers in the UOC-KP and the UAOC than ever before in history. We take part in processions and services with them, they have nothing against working with us (the UOC-MP notwithstanding) and we walk as brothers and sisters hand in hand.

Before I thought of the Ukrainian Church as the Eparchy of Eastern Canada. Today, I have a much more "Catholic" understanding of the Kyivan Church of Ukraine that includes our brothers and sisters in the Ukrainian homeland and in Siberia, Australia and other places.

We, as Kyivan Christians of Ukraine, are called to witness to Christ from within the particular perspective that our ancestors have developed and handed down to us.

This can be expressed in different languages, and our Patriarch is encouraging that.

We truly do need to be open to this and to North Americans of other backgrounds and to make them feel welcome in the Kyivan Church - that they are called to become members of just as much as we.

I see this happening already even in the seat of Ukrainian national exclusivism that is Toronto.

The fact that we can adapt in different ways to North America does NOT have to mean that we will stop losing our members to other communities.

Perhaps it will slow it down - but I sincerely doubt it. The dynamics of assimilation come from within the cultural community involved, just as the dynamics that lead mainstream people to choose to become a member of a unique cultural community come from the greater society itself.

So we will not compound the loss of our members by trying to dilute the Kyivan tradition of our Church.

We do need to become more creative in other ways to keep them and to draw others in.

Our forebears faced the same sort of challenge successfully.

I'm sure we can do the same.

After all, their blood flows through our veins!

Alex

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John
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Quote
Alex wrote:
Our East Slavic ancestors not only accepted Byzantine Christianity (also the result of an amalgam of Greco-Latin spiritual culture), but they also, and in some respects more importantly, put the stamp of their own East Slavic world-view and spiritual values on it. So much so, in fact, that they created a new "blend" so to speak of Byzantine Christianity that is different from other "blends." (O.K., I'll wait for you to go and get your coffee now . . . ).
Alex,

I agree. And just like SS Cyril & Methodius proclaimed the Gospel to the Slavs who then took it and developed a wonderful and unique way of being Christian so, too, are we to proclaim the Gospel to the Americas and allow the various cultures that make up the Americas to develop their own witness of Christ.

The fact is that our respective Churches do need to adapt to the Americas or they will cease to exist. As I stated earlier, I now accept that many people would rather see the doors of an ethnically pure church close than open them to others or adapt to the New World. I disagree with that mentality but I realize that it is one I have no control over and that it is OK if these communities die. The winter must come so that there may be a new spring.

Speaking of coffee, I seem to prefer the plain old Folger�s Classic instead of the fancy stuff at Starbucks. Kind of ironic, isn�t it? biggrin

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Dear Administrator,
Could you please tell me what your point of view of adaption is? From what I can tell you are not simply speaking of language. In your point of view are there no limits to this adaption to the culture of the Western Hemisphere? Where and when do we draw the line?
Lauro

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Dear Administrator,

I think there is some overlap in our points of view, and so our disagreements "don't reach up to heaven."

I agree with your basic presupposition - but I think we are already seeing a slow adaptation, as I've mentioned, even in nationalist Toronto.

Alex

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John
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Lauro,

Thanks for the question. Unfortunately there is no easy test for what is acceptable and what is not.

When our Slavic spiritual ancestors became Christian they �baptized� many of the pagan elements of their society by giving them Christian symbolism (psyanki comes quickly to mind).

Here in America at the end of May we have a civil remembrance of those killed in war called Memorial Day. Since it happens to usually fall near the Fifth Memorial Saturday (Fifth All Souls Saturday) it has become almost customary for many Byzantine Christians to treat Memorial Day as if it were an All Souls Day, with a celebration of a Parastas at the cemetery and the blessing of the graves of those who have died during the past year.

Look at the Easter Basket. Slavs have a wonderful tradition of including kielbasi, ham, hrutka and other delicious foods. Yet people of other cultures don�t eat these foods. I know of a few families in my parish who are of Italian origin. They took the essence of this tradition � that of bringing the food you fasted from � and replaced the kielbasi and stuff with a prime rib and a nice bottle of wine.

There are lots of other little examples. Why should Americans in the Southwest import pussy-willow branches from Pennsylvania for Flowery / Palm Sunday when there are palm trees all around? Does it make sense to build a wooden Church in the American South when it will soon rot? It seems to make much more sense to take the Slavic church architectural style and adopt it to better serve Americans, using modern building materials and methods.

When the parish in Las Vegas sells food for fundraising they prepare and sell tamales alongside pirohi. [I�m fond of the Hunan Pirohi myself! biggrin )

In the past my parish has had spaghetti suppers and �Country-N-Western� nights.

From my perspective a major step forward will be when cantors start laying roots for a new type of liturgical chant. If I had an unlimited amount of money I�d hire some Gospel musicians in the African-American Evangelical style to study our chant and create a new chant system that appeals to the African-American community. I�d do the same for the Hispanic, Asian and other cultures, too.

Obviously there are elements of particular cultures that cannot be Christianized. Each will have to be examined. People of different ethnicities should not have to leave their cultural experiences at the doors of our churches. They should be free to take our ethnic Christian experience and adapt to how they live their lives and be considered equals in our Churches.

Now I'm hungry.... smile

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Dear Administrator,
This is what I fear. Do we not have canons on how for example, Icons should be written, How many Cupolas are erected on our churches (If I'm not mistaken they are odd numbers 1,3,5 etc). If I'm not mistaken musical instruments are also not permitted especially drums nor the clapping of hands since I've heard that this disturbs the angels and they don't like it.
If we start making certain adaptations to our liturgy this liturgy will no longer be of Kyivan tradition but of Nashville.
Lauro

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My brother told me of a 'hybrid' Easter tradition in Toronto which is very popular with Ukrainians. Giant 'pysanka pinnatas' (I have no idea how to spell the second word) are hung in Church halls on Easter. After divine liturgy the kids take turns doing what you do to 'pinnatas' - smash them until the candies come out. Seems everyone loves the 'new world tradition', from the youngest to the oldest parishoners. I'm not sure how much it has to do with Orthodoxy, or Catholisism for that matter, but it seems to help bridge the gap between the old and new world without being a threat to assimilation or loss of cultural identity. Further, I'm not sure who came up with it first, the Spanish speaking Americans (Mexicans) or Ukrainians. I'm not sure it matters.

(PS Alex: ty znajesh moho brata - vin je holova 'KYK-y' v Toronti - so now you know wink )

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John
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Lauro,

Much can be done while preserving and promoting Eastern Christianity.

There are many schools of iconography. There is a Greek school, a Russian school, a Romanian school. Why not an American or Brazilian school? We can develop a distinctive iconographic tradition that is in conformance with the canons and yet reflects the cultures we live in.

There are many authentic Byzantine styles of church buildings. What makes sense for snowy Kiev won�t always make sense for the desert of California or the rain forest of Brazil. Holy Resurrection Monastery in California is building modern engineered adobe huts that are in conformity with authentic monastic tradition. Holy Tradition, running water and broadband internet connections are not mutually exclusive.

I don�t think I mentioned musical instruments. Have you ever heard a cappella Gospel music? It can be quite good. I think it would be wonderful to add new chant traditions alongside the traditional Slavic ones. Would you have problem if your parish added an extra Vesper service on Sunday night and it was filled with your fellow Brazilians singing �� Senhor, a ti clamo; d�-te pressa em me acudir! D� ouvidos � minha voz, quando a ti clamo!� in Tone 2 with full voice? I would rejoice at such a sight! smile

Will it remain a pure Kievan tradition? No. That will not be possible in the New World. It�s really not possible in the Old World either. Ukrainians, Carpath-Rusyns, Russians and other Slavs all share in the inheritance of the Kievan-Rus Tradition. Each is different and should be different. The Slavic culture today is different than it was yesterday. The Ukrainian spoken at a parish in Toronto or Chicago is different than that spoken in Ukraine. The only constant is change.

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The Adminstrator wrote:"...Why not an American or Brazilian school? We can develop a distinctive iconographic tradition that is in conformance with the canons and yet reflects the cultures we live in..."

I'm having trouble visioning the Mother of God with a veil ala Carmen Miranda....

the lady in the tutti-fruitti hat....

:p

mark


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Andy Warhol(a) probably the most famous Carpatho-Rusyn American claimed that his Byzantine Catholic faith influenced his artwork. Clearly he created modern 'pop icons' borrowing from the byzantine religious form.

Why not now borrow from his modern 'pop icons' to create a 'new byzantine' religious iconography ?

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Dear Hritsiu,

A small world, isn't is? smile

Alex

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Dear Administrator,

I agree with you on every point you make.

I just don't agree with your conclusion - and we are entitled to our own conclusions to be sure.

The Kyivan tradition is different in Siberia, in Poland, etc.

There are ritual variants in Volyn, Galicia, Bukovina (I come from a mixed-ritual family, you know) and Greater Ukraine.

Now with Pinatas we have yet another sub-ritual tradition in Toronto (I live here but never heard of that before - must be a St Dee-ism).

Yet all these traditions are "Kyivan."

I don't have a problem with that.

I did have a problem putting on the outdoor lights on my great big crab-apple tree . . .

They're the only bright lights that are going on in my head right now . . .

Alex

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John
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Alex wrote:
Now with Pinatas we have yet another sub-ritual tradition in Toronto (I live here but never heard of that before - must be a St Dee-ism).

Yet all these traditions are "Kyivan."
Excellent!

When Alex starts including customs like the pi�ata as a valid expression of Kievan-Rus spirituality we are making great progress! There is hope yet! biggrin

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Dear Administrator,

Don't let it get around, but I also go to Indian restaurants and recently organized my Godmother's "tryzna" or funeral luncheon at a Chinese restaurant.

But it was the Ukrainian St John Maximovych of Shanghai who served the Divine Liturgy in Chinese, established the French and Netherlands Orthodox Churches and who also ordained the first Spanish Orthodox priest.

When he was being canonized, he was prayerfully glorified in many languages around the world at the same time.

To paraphrase from the movie "Chicago,"

"That's the Kyivan Tradition!" smile

Alex

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