www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Why so ethnic?

Having been an Eastern Christian for a mere 3 years, and having been exposed to Eastern Christianity for only 5, I still have a lot to understand about the different people whose roots are Eastern Christian. Since I come from a Greek Orthodox parish (recently switched to Antiochian), I'm picking on the Greeks, but no offense intended, I know they're not all this way... I just don't understand why they have this mindset that they're so much better than everyone else. They founded the church fifty years ago, and basically had full control of it. They disliked the Serbs, the Ethiopians, and the Western converts when we came along, as "excenos" sp? are frowned upon. They have even called the Ethiopians a very filthy word, you can guess that one, which is terrible. They drove away a good priest, because he wasn't Greek, was too fat, dressed funny (wore the traditional cassock and beard instead of Roman collar) and sweated too much. (!!!) Can someone help me understand the mind set of these people? Why such brutal ethnicity and racism? Why so exclusive? Is this something in Greek culture (or Eastern cultures in general), or what is this all about? I come from Dutch roots, as my name indicates, and we are also quite ethnic... "If you're not Dutch, you're not much"... but what I saw in my first Orthodox parish was so intense, so extreme, and I'm trying so hard not to hate these people, I still attend the parish on occasion. Can someone offer me a perspective on this? Thank you, again, Greeks and Easterners, please take no offense. I'm sure the "nuts" are in the minority.

You can find the same thing among some Catholics. This is a fallen world and racism is one of its symptoms.

A young black man came to my parish on Easter and people refused to drink from the Chalice after him. It broke my heart.

Dearest Orthodox Dutchman,

As a cradle Greek Orthodox, I am SO sorry that you had this awful experience...and awful it would have been to me too!

I am sorry that these people, who I assume are on the most part immigrants, treated you and others so badly, and with such UNChristian behaviour. There are many, many, very devout Greek born people who worship in our churches, but unfortunately, they are not the ones who you usually meet up with. Those who you meet, and who are audacious and opinionated, are usually there as a cultural and ethnic club, rather than as a means to their salvation. If they had remained in Greece, they probably would not have been regular church goers. These same people are indeed, trouble makers, and can often give our good priests a very hard time.

In some parts of the country where immigrant's progeny are two or three generations removed, you will not find such attitudes, although we have other problems. Since we are all men, sinful by nature, problems of various sorts can often not be avoided. It is said that the devil himself is most active at church!

Infact, the move away from the extreme 'ethnic' church seemed well under way until about twenty years ago or so, when a new wave of immigration took over. The sad fact is that third and fourth generation Greek Orthodox have left the Greek Church in large numbers, and it is now up to the Greek born parishioners to 'keep up' with the exuberant costs of maintaining our beautiful churches. They often have the money to do it, and sadly, with that money, comes the attitude that they 'rule'...

Fortunately this generalization is not the rule everywhere, and there are exceptions, even in largely 'ethnic' parishes.

As for you being a 'xenos'(foreigner), I would take someone like you, who takes their CHRISTIANITY seriously, over those (who obviously don't) and who brandish such epithets, ANY DAY!

Your Sister in Christ,
Alice

This is something that is not uniquely limited to Greeks. I know of Latin and Eastern Rite churches where if you're not Polish, Croatian, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Ukrainian etc, then people will wonder what you are doing in there church. I've alot of experience with unfriendly churches though, from the Dutch Reformed, some of whom put you in a seperate category if they find out you're not Dutch, to ultra conservative Lutherans who have mastered the art of treating people as if they're invisible.

Dear Orthodox Dutchman,

I am so sorry you have had this experience, and I sincerely regret this unfortunate circumstance.

It is proof again, that all the Christians are not within our Church walls, and all the un-Christians are not to be found outside them!

In the face of such error (it is a heresy, to differentiate the nations in this way), our duty is clear. To witness to the truth, and to stand for what is right.

Whenever we do so, however, we must also be prepared to pay the price for the stand we take. (Christ did, and so must his true followers.) Very often it will not demand eloquence, or criticism of others, but merely showing a good example, and by charity, trying to make up abundantly for the crudity you have witnessed.

Do not be dismayed or disheartened though. The triumph will belong to the Truth, and sin will never endure eternally.

Elias

Ethnic-Schmethnic....so long as you have your health.....

So, my bloodlines are French, Scottish, Lithuanian, and German.....many of my relatives are Catholic, Protestant,Jewish, and even a few other things.....so, where does my "ethnicity" fit in? In the body of Christ! Where there is neither Jew, nor Greek......

Dear Father Elias,

Bless!

Thank you for reminding us all that we must remember to be 'icons' of Christianity for all who we meet in our churches.

Respectfully,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

I also would like to speak about what I consider a minor miracle. I am of german/irish heritage, and yet I have been warmly accepted into a slavic parish community. I am amazed, that this traditional parish has been as open as it has been, in accepting a non-native into its fold! They have been so tolerant of my heritage, and my many faults.

I know that this is possible, and I pray that everyone can experience this wonderful joy of 'belonging'.

I'm afraid you're up against the old Adam, Mr Dutchman, alarming but inevitable.
On another thread you mentioned the Ethiopians. I posted a question about that but you apparently did not return to that thread [that's okay, I often forget where I have posted, too]. Anyway, where in the "midwest" is there an Ethiopian church? I used to occasionally attend an Ethiopian Catholic church when I lived near DC but thought that now I lived in Ohio I was a very long ways away from anything like that... I realize that the term "midwest" can mean anything from Missouri to Minnesota to Ohio to Oklahoma but I'm curious.

Dear fellow pilgrim O-D,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

My heart goes out to you, you must be very distressed. Being called to live the Sacramental life is so beautiful and then to find a situation like this, with our petty human nature...

Be assured, that type of ethno-centrism is unchristian and has no place in the church. I had been hoping the churches were outgrowing that behavior but it seems that there is a long way to go yet!

I know that you live quite a distance from other eastern churches (North Dakota, perhaps?), I will keep you in my prayers.

My heritage is very mixed, generation after generation in my family married across ethnic lines. I am grateful that the little parish I go to is very welcoming to newcomers.

I have a theory that the ethnically based community usually will not be very welcoming (generally) unless they have it clear in their minds that the church needs the new blood or it will die. This is just human nature, so my comments are not directed toward any one group over another.

Many eastern churches actually were started by ethnic clubs! It's a fact that many immigrant groups clustered into places where they could be among compatriots and the first thing they might do would be to set up a social club, or fellowship of some sort. They could start a sick fund, or a burial fund, they might even start a drinking club! Times were usually hard for new immigrants in foreign lands. When the group would get large enough the nostalgia for the old country and the old church would get so strong that they would take up collections to raise money for a church. This would be especially important when friends were unexpectedly dying without benefit of the sacraments and the children were coming along. They would send to europe for a priest and plan for a school, so the children wouldn't lose the connections with the old ways. Sometimes the school would be started first! In any case, the priest would be put in charge of the ethnic school once he arrived.

So clearly for many communities the church was a manifestation of the culture, not the other way around. Some people might even come over as socialists or communists (late 19th century) and still support the neighborhood church in this new setting. There was an extreme reluctance to submit to the authority of bishops as well (the Russians were claiming jurisdiction), care was taken to retain the title to the property in the name of the parish council, so this gave rise to some interesting church histories, with changes in affiliation resulting from local parish politics.

I have heard more than once that the church youth group was often how the matchmaking was done. If you are trying to find a young man from Xland to match up with your daughter, you need to keep the young men from Yland and Zland out of the social events.

So in a situation like that it's clear that there are many social dynamics at work that have little to do with Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

I am sorry, I know that none of what I have said makes it any easier for you.

Being a Christian wasn't supposed to be easy.

In Christ, your friend
Michael

Dear Orthodox Dutchman, I suppose it all depends on one's experience? 27 years ago as a young Franciscan, I went to a Greek Orthodox church for Liturgy and received THE most incredible welcome I'd ever experienced. A few months later, I visited another Greek parish (500 miles away from the first one) and had exactly the same experience.

In the 1800's in the USA Roman Catholic parishes and dioceses were formed around common ethnic roots...but with time that has passed. Probably we need to give Orthodox parishes in the West a bit more time to integrate...and in the meantime, you are/would be ALWAYS welcomed in my parish and no one would even care what nationality you are!

In Christ Jesus Our Lord,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory (Doucette-O'Keefe)

What excellent replies! You have helped me to at least comprehend a little better what was going on. As I said, I recently switched to an Antiochian church when the problems got to be too overbearing, but that is 90 minutes away, so I sometimes have to overcome my anxiety for the sake of going to liturgy, as I did yesterday. I wasn't surprised, most of the people were as rude as they always were.

I saw in one post that someone had dealt with the Dutch Reformed. I know that story very well. I've sometimes wondered what would happen if you put one of those mean old Dutch ladies in a boxing ring with a mean old Greek lady--who would drop first?? lol I have also been told that I have Irish, English, and Polish roots, but I have no way of knowing that for sure.

For Daniel, the Ethiopian Orthodox community used to meet at the Greek parish, but they now have their own church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The Ethiopians have had problems and divisions of their own, and to mirror what happened in my former parish, a very holy priest was sent packing. Haven't been to St. Kidane Mehret's for quite some time, but I hope things are improving.

I guess very few of us can claim to be totally free from prejudice of some sort. On a happier note, I wish all of you a blessed feast of the Nativity. Christ is born!

Thanks again,
Michael (Orthodox Dutchman)

Michael,

I'm glad you found a welcoming community in your new parish and saddened by the experience that you suffered at your former parish. I had the good fortune, almost 40 years ago, to enter into a Melkite parish that embraced a young Irish kid - at a time when the parish community was still almost entirely ethnic.

But, over the years, at other Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches, I've experienced both warmth and a chill that would make the North Pole seem summery. Most visits have been casual, but I've even encountered the cold shoulder a couple times when accompanying a visiting hierarch, in a quasi-official capacity.

IMHO, whether one is greeted kindly or with disdain is more a function of the Christian charity of an individual congregation than it is of the ethnicity or the Church (EO or EC) involved. Generally, though, I'd agree with Rose - a congregation that is heavily populated by recent immigrants tends to be less open to outsiders than one that has been settled for a couple generations. I have to be a bit chauvenistic though and say that, in my experience, Melkite parishes (and those of our sister Antiochean Church) are generally open and welcoming. (I admit though, that I have heard an occasional complaint.)

One particular experience that will always stick with me occurred at Christmas 1968. I was a young Army Lieutenant stationed at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, TX, facing my first ever Christmas away from home and longing for my Melkite community. I had already found that there were no Byzantine Rite churches in the city, but discovered that there was a Maronite parish. I drove by to locate it and stopped to check the schedule for the Service of the Mysteries on Christmas. While doing so, I was approached by a priest.

We spoke and he not only invited me to attend, but asked if I would read the Epistle and Gospel. I was surprised, but honored. So, on Christmas morning, decked in my dress blues, I did so. Afterwards, in the church hall, people - from the "old Aunties" to the young children - greeted and treated me as if I were one of their community and always had been. This was at the height of VietNam, a time when being in the American military was not a prescription for popularity. I had to refuse several dinner invitations, as I had to return to duty, but I attended Liturgy there several more times during my remaining months in Texas and was always treated with the same warmth. May the memory of Father Vladimir Wakim, who bothered to make me welcome at a lonely time, be eternal.

Many years,

Neil

Ah, yes! It depends. The classic lawyer's answer, I love it!

Seriously, when one has an "ethinically based" parish, the parish is an extension of one's identity and, therefore, the parishioners will want it to reflect that. "Outsiders" are usually welcome to come as tourists (for lack of a better term) but to be fully accepted, one really has to take on that ethnicity.

We have had several non-Ukie clergy in the UGCC. Some of them even wind up speaking better Ukrainian than some of their younger parishioners.

Yours,

hal

Dear Neil,

I think you mean me, not Rose!

Alice